Romerito -> RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (Feb. 19 2023 23:09:43)
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Not sure why you want to nit pick about dim3rd (inversion)vs aug6 above the bass, there is no need for a flamenco to follow those rules to accept the concept harmonically is THE SAME regardless where in the voicing structure the thing happens. But if you have to see the aug6 above the bass move to tonic, here are two examples at :41 G7 (F natural would be E# above G) to F#major, also at 1:03 right after the tremolo. It is very deliberate and you can hear the tension resolve as it should, however I recommend slowing the examples way down:
Not nitpicking. They are two different sonorities. You have been conditioned (as have I) to think that chord inversions are one and the same chord with a different voice in the bass. The Italians did not think that way. You (and I) inherited a mix of the German and French theories of Riemann and Rameau. This is still being taught at university. Flamencos also did not inherit either the French or German view of chords. Their harmonic palette was pretty narrow and if they inherited the Italian (via the Spanish Baroque of Sanz and De Murcia) way of thinking about "chords" it was indirectly.
I don't know if you have gotten into partimento but that is a whole different world than we inherited. Roman numerals are shorthand to help communicate function and scale degree (for 19th century amateurs) but there are other ways to communicate that information including figured bass, jazz notation, etc. My only point, is that I (me) see Montoya only as (in your words) using those chords incidentally. And, importantly, there is nothing before him in flamenco either incidentally or purposefully, that I have found.
Where in his solea? You have a graphic or a transcription or a time stamp? It's not in the first solea...I have transcribed that one.
Arcas does use dim3rd (what does this communicate compared to Aug6th - labels do matter for theory).
Ricardo -> RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (Feb. 20 2023 19:18:42)
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Where in his solea? You have a graphic or a transcription or a time stamp? It's not in the first solea...I have transcribed that one.
Arcas does use dim3rd (what does this communicate compared to Aug6th - labels do mater for theory).
Since we took this discussion off line, I just wanted to leave some closure about this question. Montoya’s version is even jazzier than the variants paco uses on this phrase (see attached photo from Faucher).
About dim3rd vs aug6. I agree that “chords” are a concept different than voices that create harmony. But again, here, there is a mentality for cadence, and the concept of what the bass does is how you might DEFINE a situation, but it doesn’t really change “function” in my mind. So in the video below we learn the old labels of voice lead cadence, based on PARTS, however the bass can assume the role of different parts to create different types of cadences. So an aug6 manifests as a way to deal with a situation where a “Fa-Mi” or “Soft” cadence happens and the soprano counter voice to the tenor is moving up by half step, and tenor moves down by half step (a violation in the old world). So since the bass is doing the tenor thing, it is called “Tenorizans”. So aug6th chords describe the different ways this situation is dealt with. A dim3rd would be a “cantizan/sopran” cadence version of the SAME EXACT THING, where the bass moves up by step. A Basizan version could also be an option that has a plagal sound (assuming we keep a Fa-Mi cadence thing and don’t allow a change of tonality, as the video shows).
So to conclude por medio flamenco cadence:
Bb7-A=tenorizan cadence (Bb bass G# melody violates what should be Gm/Bb, no F’s voiced)=Aug6th Bb7/G#-A= Sopran/cantizan cadence (G# bass Bb melody, violates what should be Gm, no F’s)=dim3rd Bb7/D-A = Basizan cadence (Again, the normal thing should not have G#, just Gm/D-A plagal sounding thing, no F’s)=? While allowed in Flamenco is not very common. We would instead land on an inverted A chord (A/C#)…somehow still following some sort of voice leading instincts (Altizans?). Also fun that the Picardy third HAS to be used (C# in our case).
Flamenco uses vanilla cadences too, good ol Gm-A. We avoid the Basizan Gm-D that ACTUALLY would work over the tenor (cante) resolution of Bb-A. However, if were are very honest, it is THIS sound that gives us the magic Falla amor Brujo thing, where he plays with Gm and D major with A tonic, not properly resolving anything but, you get the point. Voice leading is still at work even if we fail to properly define “augmented 6th chord” or which ever label.
Romerito -> RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (Feb. 20 2023 19:48:03)
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About dim3rd vs aug6. I agree that “chords” are a concept different than voices that create harmony. But again, here, there is a mentality for cadence, and the concept of what the bass does is how you might DEFINE a situation, but it doesn’t really change “function” in my mind.
Agreed. But that is a function theory (a la Riemann), as opposed to scale-degree theory (a la Rameau). We know what each other mean when we say diminished third vs. having to say, "this is a third inversion of an augmented sixth chord.
quote:
So in the video below we learn the old labels of voice lead cadence, based on PARTS, however the bass can assume the role of different parts to create different types of cadences. So an aug6 manifests as a way to deal with a situation where a “Fa-Mi” or “Soft” cadence happens and the soprano counter voice to the tenor is moving up by half step, and tenor moves down by half step (a violation in the old world). So since the bass is doing the tenor thing, it is called “Tenorizans”. So aug6th chords describe the different ways this situation is dealt with. A dim3rd would be a “cantizan/sopran” cadence version of the SAME EXACT THING, where the bass moves up by step. A Basizan version could also be an option that has a plagal sound (assuming we keep a Fa-Mi cadence thing and don’t allow a change of tonality, as the video shows).
Not the exact same thing, otherwise we would not name it. Function theory is late nineteenth century and scale degree theory early eighteenth. Can all those "phrygian cadences" function in the same way. Sure, they fit in that category. I concede that as a matter of categorizing them generally, they serve the same or similar function. That does not mean they all came into practice in the same historical moment, or that they all entered flamenco in the same historical moment with the same or similar understanding of their mechanics.
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Bb7-A=tenorizan cadence (Bb bass G# melody violates what should be Gm/Bb)=Aug6th Bb7/G#-A= Sopran/cantizan cadence (G# bass Bb melody, violates what should be Gm)=dim3rd Bb7/D-A = Basizan cadence (Again, the normal thing should not have G#, just Dm-A plagal)=? While allowed in Flamenco is not very common. We would instead land on an inverted A chord…somehow still following some sort of voice leading instincts.
There is no such thing as Bb7/g#. The flat seventh is equal to the raised sixth. Bb7 would resolve to A7...rare if ever in common practice music...great for flamenco though. I don't know if the theory that explains these cadences will catch on. My understanding is that Italy is unique in its musicology programs since Gjerdingen discovered the partimento tradition. Tons of scholars are now working on it and on early music where they had before focused on Baroque music and later repertoires. The theory behind those cadences is helpful in understanding certain repertoires but there are other theories about cadences that are more inline with later repertoires. Also, just to illustrate the point that I made about microhistories and microtheories forming the body of what we call music history or music theory, there have been several books written on cadences alone, from phrygian cadences to cadences used in cinema. Another example is the evolution of single keys from modal practices. THat is a very complex evolution that is cannot be explained simply as "modality begat tonality."
Ricardo -> RE: What are your goals re flamenco? (Feb. 20 2023 20:02:11)
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There is no such thing as Bb7/g#. The flat seventh is equal to the raised sixth. Bb7 would resolve to A7...rare if ever in common practice music...great for flamenco though.
Of course. It is a translation where I have used (=) to demonstrate shared mentality. Like this: G#=Ab. It does and doesn’t mean the same thing at the same time. A “Bb7 chord” goes to Eb. This other thing goes to A, we could call it "§" if we want, it is just labeling. Interesting the Italian guy of that channel has a video about improvisation, where singers could improvise the vocal polyphony based on rules, that followed a set melody. Isn’t that what cante accompaniment is (only with guitar instead of voices?)
