Finding plans (Full Version)

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je2907 -> Finding plans (Dec. 12 2022 12:21:32)

I'm loking for the ramirez flamenca guitar plan and/or the Santos Hernandez 1929 plans.
Do you know where i could find them please ?
Thanks a lot

Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 12 2022 23:24:21)

Not exactly what you asked for...

je2907 -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 13 2022 11:45:15)

No not what I am looking for. Really looking for the Santos 1929 or Esteso flamenca

Ricardo -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 13 2022 15:48:56)


Esteso flamenca

Do you mean Manuel Ramirez?

Echi -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 13 2022 17:40:07)

Not clear why it has to be 1929.
If you are interested in flamenco guitars plans of 1934, David Merrins sells both a plan of Domingo Esteso and of Santos Hernandez. sells the usual Courtnall plan, otherwise has in stock another Santos flamenco.
Beside that there’s a book (A collection of fine Spanish guitars) full of informations (plates thicknesses, bracing diagrams etc.) but they are not plans in the proper sense.

je2907 -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 14 2022 6:38:39)

other questions, which tires models are flamencas?

Ricardo -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 14 2022 11:45:27)


ORIGINAL: je2907

other questions, which tires models are flamencas?

The difference is only the neck angle and tap plate.

je2907 -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 16 2022 19:06:43)

No I meant, did Torres build flamenca guitars ?

Fawkes -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 16 2022 19:49:13)


ORIGINAL: je2907

No I meant, did Torres build flamenca guitars ?

This fascinating article by Bruné is on point: "Cultural Origins of the Modern Guitar". It is periodically posted here at the forum.

RobF -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 16 2022 20:34:39)


No I meant, did Torres build flamenca guitars ?

Maybe the more important question is whether you can make a good flamenco guitar using a Torres style pattern, or do you need to look later at the stuff originating out of the Manuel Ramirez shop, like from Santos or Esteso.

The thing about Torres is he used a fairly defined kite-patterned fan bracing scheme. Santos was very creative so it’s difficult to pin down any one bracing strategy to him. An enormous number of bracing patterns, often popularized/standardized by later makers, can be traced back to Santos, or at least can be found in his work. So, in that sense, one needs to be very specific when referring to a Santos plan, as there are various.

Honestly, you can’t go wrong by starting out with analyzing Torres. Things to look for are the symmetry of the fans, which can be projected to meet at a defined origin point, the angle made where the outer fan braces meet the closing braces, which often approaches 90 degrees, and the breadth of the kite, in other words, how close to the edges the braces go, indicating the structural coverage. Also pay attention to how the dimensions of the bridge interact with the brace placement, as it’s all part of the system. Once that’s absorbed, it’s not too hard to draw up your own interpretation based on your preferred plantilla.

The flamenco character of the guitar will largely be defined by the action at the 12th fret and, more importantly, the height of the strings over the soundboard at the bridge. The sweet spot there is conventionally 7.5mm, some like it a bit higher, others lower, but for a new guitar, it is prudent to try to hit somewhere between 8.0 and 8.5mm, in order to allow for adjustability as the guitar settles. Starting out with something like 7.0mm, while in the ‘Goldilocks’ zone for some players, is the kiss of death for a maker, as you’ve robbed yourself of the ability to make necessary adjustments if you decide you want lower action at the 12th than the guitar has once strung up.

Anyways, that’s just my feelings on the matter. There’s quite a few good makers who hang out here so opinions on pretty well everything can vary, but generally they don’t that much.

But, for sure, you can make a really nice flamenco guitar following the Torres philosophy. I’ve yet to make a Torres based guitar that disappointed. They just seem to work.

constructordeguitarras -> [Deleted] (Dec. 17 2022 0:26:19)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 17 2022 0:26:53

Echi -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 17 2022 17:56:50)

What is the point in making a Torres style guitar if you want a flamenco guitar?
My 2 cents is: go for a Santos, a Barbero, or a Reyes. Plans are well made.

RobF -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 17 2022 20:27:01)


What is the point in making a Torres style guitar if you want a flamenco guitar?

My point is a good flamenco guitar can be made using the principles established by Torres. As an added bonus, the new maker might actually learn something about the fundamentals of how to make a guitar, rather than just blindly following plans without a clue as to why the maker deviated from the original Torres concepts to start with. The bottom line is until some fundamental knowledge is established any plan will do as the outcome is going to be a bit of a crap shoot, regardless.

estebanana -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 18 2022 6:36:05)

1973 Sobrinos de Esteso
Owned by a pro player in Berkeley California

Take it to a print shop, blow up photo to 490 mm long.

Print it out then check the upper, middle and lower bout widths.

Tween the print size scale until you hit it correctly.

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estebanana -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 18 2022 6:39:08)

It looks like this

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Echi -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 18 2022 17:53:19)

That bracing is basically the same used by Esteso.
Little differences match different plantilla sizes.
Here are the pictures of my 81 Conde with are the same of another old Conde of mine.
I have a 63 Sobrinos without the closing struts and yet the disposition of the fan bracing is the same.

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Ricardo -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 18 2022 17:59:44)


1973 Sobrinos de Esteso

Interesting…mine has the parallel middle sticks, just like Brune’s 67 he has photographed here:

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estebanana -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 19 2022 0:53:32)

Did you just say Fiddle Sticks?

No Ricky, those are manchego cheese sticks …

Echi -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 19 2022 10:11:17)

Ricardo, you may notice a different plantilla.
A smaller plantilla makes much more difference than people think and the luthier may look to balance a certain wood with a certain plantilla and/or with a different bracing pattern.
Yours is the ‘Barbero like’ Conde pattern, mine is basically the updated Domingo Esteso pattern.
The same Esteso pattern with little differences (tre 3 central struts set a title closer) was in the guitar used by Paco de Lucia.
Conde used also a third kind of pattern which I found in the ‘63 Sobrinos I own: in this case you have 7 bars, spread exactly as in the ‘81 Conde, but without the 2 closing bars: the evident consequence of this pattern is that you have a big area behind the bridge uncovered by any strut (and in fact those are Condes with more cracks in the top). This kind of bracing was used in the 60ties both for the concert line and the Pozuelo line, with the a rounded lower bout plantilla but abandoned thereafter.

estebanana -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 20 2022 2:42:38)

I forgot to mention -

The 1951 Barbero that Brune’ drew has the same fan brace pattern as some of the 1920’s Santos guitars. It’s viable as a replacement for a Santos Hernandez from the 20’s - I’ve seen with my own eyes a 1920 Santos with the verbatim fan system if the 51’ Barbero.

And bear in mind Santos didn’t use just one fan scheme, I’ve seen three different ones attributed to him, two of which I’ve seen.

The guitars I just finished were influenced by one of his patterns, and it’s not a difficult guitar to make bracing wise.

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Ricardo -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 20 2022 18:47:39)

What about…santos FERNANDEZ?

Richard Jernigan -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 21 2022 15:49:58)



What about…santos FERNANDEZ?

The nephew of the notorious Arcangel Hernandez….


estebanana -> RE: Finding plans (Dec. 21 2022 23:28:41)

Ah, back to Santos Fernandez~ the Unicorn of all guitars.

Just remember the truth, Archangel Hernandez and Santos Fernandez were really cousins and a few extant guitars by these makers exist. These are very rare, thus they are called Guitarras de Los Dos Unicornios- guitars of the Two Unicorns.

Lots of conspiracies today, lies and misinformation abound. If anyone ever offers you for sale an alleged German Ramirez or a laughable Romanillos de la Chica, walk away fast. Only the mafia, yakuza and QAnon cult deal in these false instruments. These are definitely faked.

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