Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Full Version)

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PLasencia -> Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Mar. 30 2006 22:37:46)

Hello friends,


You might be interested in Edward Freeman-transcriptions of Paco de Lucía.

Saludos,

Plasencia



Doitsujin -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Mar. 31 2006 14:03:00)

As usual a classic secialist wrote down something which was originally flamenco. But its useless as he wrote it down. I can hear falsetas by my self from tape and play them faster than using such bad notations. Sorry. Just my Op. But ok we all started some day. I remember when I learnen some dusty sabicas stuff with usual classic notation. Maybe there are people who have a use for it. hhmm..



PLasencia -> RE: ¿"Dusty stuff from Sabicas"? (Mar. 31 2006 15:33:59)

In the 50's it was very uncommon to value flamenco abroad or even try to write down the music. I think (with all respect) that: 1)... You are too young to be conscious of who EF was, let alone the time in which he lived. 2)...you are ingnorant of the development in flamenco nowadays as a result of the history ("dusty stuff from Sabicas"...? I never heard an aficionado say that)
3)...you have a prejudiced opinion, maybe due to trauma caused by many bad notations of pianists who wrote down what they heard (without cejilla transposing the stuff in funny keys), or guitar-teachers, with a smell and hair coming out of the nose, who hit you when doing something wrong.

Flamenco is not fixed, and you seem to be fixed in a very tiny world.



XXX -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Mar. 31 2006 16:30:56)

quote:

Maybe there are people who have a use for it


Only very very few, I think.

@PLasencia:

1) I think Doitsujin is even too young to be conscious of who Hitler was and the time in which he lived. Does that mean that one can not have a correct opinion on what he did???

2) Calm down; he only said that it is not that useful and showed his sadness on it.

3) Well I dont know if its an "prejudiced opinion", but I also dont think that those notes are extremely, unbelievably useful.

quote:

Flamenco is not fixed, and you seem to be fixed in a very tiny world.


It would be soo cool, if you would have the greatness to show the "big" world of flamenco. Otherwise this sentence is just left to be only an accusation [;)]



PLasencia -> RE: @ALL (last time) (Mar. 31 2006 19:14:30)

@1) Of course one can have an opinion, but I feel that he generalises too much about "as usual" classical specialists...the work EF has done was in his time. I just tell the story that he did. "As usual"may be a "correct opinion" (whatever that may be) in Doitsujin's time, but not appropriate for the moment it was written.

@2)¿I'm calm? I'm just direct in communicating and I don't fear any sharp language to make myself clear. In fact I was trying to write in an understanding and mild way. Please tell me if you have the impression that I am rude or angry.

@3)I'm trying not to be objective and I don't want to convince anyone either. I just think that the way Doitsujin expresses himself is a bit black&white. If he would be milder and more open to things that may be "not of any use" to him personally, he could still consider the beauty of it. Beauty, together with music, does not have any other aims than to please. That's the only use I can think of. The site was made out of love and respect for a very original man who was struck by flamenco, way ahead in his time. It may well be that music/sound becomes a part of the site, in order to complete the tribute.
By the way, there is an original "dusty" 78RPM recording of a duet between Sabicas & Niño Ricardo on the site-menu. Beautiful in my ears.

And the last sentence was no accusation, but a provocation. Just f**cking around. (I'm sure you will forgive me ;) )

Cheers friends and enjoy.

With love,


Plasencia



JBASHORUN -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Mar. 31 2006 19:38:49)

IMHO any transcription is at least some help, unless it is very poorly done by an amature who doesn't know what they are doing. Most of the tabs you find on those tab websites are inaccurate too. Unless the transcriber is very good at transcribing. But most are just kids. only the guitarist himself knows the EXACT fingerings, the subtle accents, etc. But other people's tabs at least give you an idea about how it is done. Plus, if you are experienced enough to work out a song by ear, then you have no real need for tabs anyway, and any transcription will be worthless. tabs are really aimed at people who are not experienced enough to work out the songs themselves. I suppose it helps a lot if the tabs are accurate. But when the transcription is free, you make do with whatever you get and don't complain. Either that, or transcribe it yourself.


Jb



XXX -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Mar. 31 2006 20:08:37)

Hm, you understood me a bit wrongly.
quote:

Of course one can have an opinion


1)Its not about having any opinion. He said its useless and he said why it is. You could have said: "Not it IS usefull, because..."

quote:

the work EF has done was in his time


What does that mean? Iits funny to think of something that somebody does, which is not in his time (time travel?).
The reason why something is appropriate is not dependant of the time itself, but the conditions of the time. Here and now, these notes are not that usefull. We have tabbing programs and DVDs. Sounds a bit ridiculous to say: "But in that time they were"... who cares now?

2/3) Anger or not, that was really not my point. The problem is, you are telling hes ignorant, but instead of "proving" it by giving reasons where he made a mistake in his statement, you say "I'm trying not to be objective". Well thats pretty bad for a statement isnt it?
"I don't want to convince anyone either" - youre just doing it ("If he would be milder").

quote:

If he would be milder and more open to things that may be "not of any use" to him personally


LOL why should someone be open to things that are useless and even if its useless only to him?
Beauty ... is in the eye of the beholder

quote:

The site was made out of love and respect for a very original man


Cool, but that was *not* the point.

quote:

And the last sentence was no accusation, but a provocation


I didnt mean to be offensive, hope your answer was not influenced by a wrong picture of my statement, amigo. The question was meant seriously; Im always open to learn new things.

Ps: Yeah, noticed that Sabicas recording. Cool stuff, although I like solo or accompainment guitar more. You know the duet stuff Paco did in the 60s? "Canciones andaluzas..." or so. He recorded it with his brother Pepe I think. Great, can highly recommend it!



XXX -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Mar. 31 2006 20:10:43)

LOL James! Its notes, not tabs.

Ps: Yeah of course; anybody who think theyre usefull can use them, sure.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Mar. 31 2006 21:18:37)

quote:

LOL James! Its notes, not tabs.

Ps: Yeah of course; anybody who think theyre usefull can use them, sure.



LOL, sorry Deniz, I misunderstood the whole discussion! [:D]

Jb



Doitsujin -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Mar. 31 2006 22:29:05)

Hi Place.

Please dont fight with other users coz of my slipprey comments. Just fight with me, ok?

Yes I really thought and still think that Eddis transcriptions are useless for me. [;)] sorry, just my opinion. The space of this homepage would have been better used for some good pictures of some hot bunnys than these transcriptions.

I dont want to fight here. You can answere rude to me, thats no problem So its cool that you have a strong position against mine. That makes it more interesting. So lets be friends, but with different opinions.

You are right, I dont know Eddi. But I dont miss this knowledge. I have more than enough much more important informations to learn at the moment than one more tiny fart in the universe. I have not enough time to waste it on subimportant bagatelles.

hmmm yes Sabicas compositions are nostalgic in my eyes. But they were great for his time period. I respect his work very much. Its just not up to date anymore now. I heared all his cds very often in past and liked it very very much. My taste changed over the years, thats it.



PLasencia -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Mar. 31 2006 23:45:07)

Doitsujin,

It's ok man, and to Deniz too. I just don't see how we can disagree. To me it's not "either-or", but "both-and".
In the end, there was some guy in Vietnam that was interested. Bahrain hits the place, so maybe it is of some use, somewhere sometime, to someone who appreciates it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I thought it would be a pity not to share it. I changed my taste like you did, but never ever would I object in advance to a traditional flamenco piece. As to the learning methods, I prefer the auditive way too because that's the quickest for me. I even consider playing the pieces shown and put it on-line. A lot of work too. But then again, that's just me.

Goodnight.



Francisco -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Apr. 1 2006 3:55:51)

quote:

PLasencia
To me it's not "either-or", but "both-and".

I like the way you think. Reminds me of Dr. Schrodinger and his cat. But seriously, it tends to be on the Taoist side of the spectrum, which I completely respect.

Saludos



Doitsujin -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Apr. 1 2006 9:32:03)

Yes shareing is always right. Sometimes the shared things are very interesting and sometimes not. There will always be some people who like it and some dont. At the end I think its cool you shared the site with us.



XXX -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Apr. 1 2006 12:05:23)

quote:

PLasencia
To me it's not "either-or", but "both-and".


Depends on what "either", "or, "both", and "and" is.

In any case: Dont fight each other [:)]



Francisco -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Apr. 1 2006 14:35:29)

quote:

Deniz
Depends on what "either", "or, "both", and "and" is.

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

well.....whatever you, I or the green beens beyond think "either", "or", "both" and "and" is, is, the proposed is that it is AND is not at the same time. enjoy![8D]



XXX -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Apr. 1 2006 17:14:26)

Hm, [:(]
I just wanted to point out that a statement like: "To me it's not "either-or", but "both-and"" is a prejudice itself.



PLasencia -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Apr. 1 2006 18:22:37)

I guess we reached a point in which we don't develop the level of this conversation anymore. If I read what the original post was (...."you might be interested") You might,... no more and no less. If not, that's ok with me, if you are, well I'm happy for you.
I also had an initial reply to the remarks of Doitsujin placed on the site it self.
So, please, let us stop sharpen our knives and catching the words from eachother and analyse everything to the bone. For every word there is two words back. I think I understand what you are saying Deniz. Thank you for your opinion. Doitsujin, I will certainly consider the criticism in this or in a new project. Nothing compares to music. I would love some recordings going along with it. I'll think about it.
(To everybody: Thanks for the attention.)

P.



XXX -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Apr. 1 2006 18:33:51)

Just wanted to make clear what I meant, since I got the impression, that Samwise understood it (maybe) wrongly. It wasnt my aim to start a discussion on it.

"analyse everything to the bone" ...is actually the best way to prevent misunderstandings and com forward in a discussion, not to stand still.

You said you are very direct and I also wanted to be it. Nothing to do with "sharping knives".

"If I read what the original post was" ... yeah, but then you went on a bit different ("ignorant") and I felt you were wrong in saying that. Thats it, amigo. Nothing more ;)



PLasencia -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Apr. 1 2006 18:54:18)

¡Hey Deniz!

Quote this, amigo: (...)


P.



XXX -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Apr. 1 2006 20:05:33)

I wish you alot of fun in your huge world of flamenco, dude.

Who am I to critisize you, and even by quoting you, eh?

[;)]

quote:

...


Hope your happy now. I wished you had *not* kept writing after your first post. Some might get the impression now that your attitude towards critisizm is ... ignorant???
Dont know how old u are, but I bet too old for such childish reactions man. (Did you read or thought at all about what I wrote???)



JBASHORUN -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Apr. 1 2006 20:35:55)

LOL, okay guys... I think this conversation has gone on too long, and got side-tracked. [:D] Plasencia, thanks for posting the information, I think you had good intentions, and maybe someone somewhere will find it useful, even if Deniz and Doit don't.


Let's try and keep this a "flaming free" forum.


Jb



Ron.M -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Apr. 1 2006 20:58:14)

James,
These guys have long gone off discussing Flamenco.
They are discussing words like lawyers, to see who wins in the end!
It's a man thing!

(Hey...Miguel's wife is a Lawyer!
I wonder if he ever wins any arguments at home?
I certainly don't..and my wife isn't a Lawyer...just has the ordinary Female brain, which seems to be enough! [:D])

Anyway...

Here's a thing I copied from the eBorneo Classical Forum which made me laugh...



THE SPANISH COMPUTER:


A Spanish teacher was explaining to her class that in Spanish, unlike
English, nouns are designated as either masculine or feminine.

"House" for instance, is feminine: "la casa."

"Pencil," however, is masculine: "el lapiz."

A student asked, "What gender is 'computer'?"

Instead of giving the answer, the teacher split the class into two
groups, male and female, and asked them to decide for themselves
whether "computer"
should be a masculine or a feminine noun.

Each group was asked to give four reasons for its recommendation.

The men's group decided that "computer" should definitely be of the
feminine gender ("la computadora"), because:

1. No one but their creator understands their internal logic;

2. The native language they use to communicate with other computers is
incomprehensible to everyone else;

3. Even the smallest mistakes are stored in long term memory for
possible later retrieval; and

4. As soon as you make a commitment to one, you find yourself spending
half your paycheck on accessories for it.



The women's group, however, concluded that computers should be
Masculine ("el computador"), because:

1. In order to do anything with them, you have to turn them on;

2. They have a lot of data but still can't think for themselves;

3. They are supposed to help you solve problems, but half the time they
ARE the problem; and

4. As soon as you commit to one, you realize that if you had waited a
little longer, you could have gotten a better model.



cheers

Ron



duende -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Apr. 1 2006 21:27:57)

[:D][:D]



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Apr. 2 2006 1:25:07)

quote:

Here's a thing I copied from the eBorneo Classical Forum which made me laugh...


Ron;

All these answers hurt - they are so true. I guess a computer is of a neutral gender. Since I support myself and my family by using a PC as a programmer, I guess I can truly say that “Computers are a total pain where I sit down”!



Francisco -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Apr. 2 2006 3:17:43)

quote:

since I got the impression, that Samwise understood it (maybe) wrongly

Maybe, or maybe I understood wrongly and non-wrongly at the same time![8D]

Seriously tho, it doesn't matter, it was all in jest...so perhaps we are all a little 'wrongly'. Especially so when we express negativity towards those trying to contribute to this forum. I think in the future, in a perfect world, which will never exist, we should thanks thos supplying us with resources if we think they are helpful, and quietly move along if we think they are not

EDIT:
BTW, Ron...
quote:

They are discussing words like lawyers, to see who wins in the end!

On the surface it looks like a discussion of words, but really more of an attempt to expose people to a different perspective. That is all.



Exitao -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Apr. 2 2006 6:21:41)

quote:

Let's try and keep this a "flaming free" forum.


Jb


How can you have flamenco without flame?



JBASHORUN -> RE: Edward Freeman & Paco de Lucía (Apr. 2 2006 20:40:08)

quote:

quote:

Let's try and keep this a "flaming free" forum.


Jb

How can you have flamenco without flame?


LOL, Good one, Exitao! these guys are really putting the "flame" in FLAMEnco!!! [:D]


Jb



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