Hey Guys, what is generally acceptable for picado speed at 16th notes? Im basically stuck at 120 BPM with 16th notes though I will slowly improve over time, it will require a ton more practice and effort In picado alone to increase this dramatically. Should I be happy with the speed im at for most flamenco music? My goals are just to play flamenco for friends and family and mostly myself, I do not intend to play professionally.
Stu -> RE: Picado Speed (Oct. 3 2022 23:50:54)
120bpm? 16th notes? Clean and crisp?
How long have you been playing?
Funny though I've been practicing my picado recently and felt.some minor improvements and was thinking of starting a picado thread. š
However you usually get a url from a foro thread from 2006 with great advice but without that sense of discussion.you get from a live thread.
I tell you what. Post a vid of your 120bpm picado and ill record the same scale and post a vid too. Maybe get a little vibe going? Some critiques, some encouragement, Some tips
quote:
generally acceptable for picado speed
I'm not quite sure there is such a thing. Acceptable to whom? I mean if you don't wanna play pro and are only playing for friends and family? I imagine they will be a pretty accepting bunch and won't get too upset should your picado not be very fast.
I'd think a nice 120bpm Alegrias en compas with a relaxed, clean picado run would be very acceptable.
What is not 'acceptable' to anyone is sloppy, out of compas picado with messy sounding notes. And even your non aficianados family and friends ears would not accept that, even though they may tell you different, their brains wouldnt like it.
My point is everyone would rather hear clean precise picado at 100bpm than less clean and precise picado at 130bpm. I'm sure you know this.
I guess I'm trying to say the only thing for a hobby player that would need to be judged by the panel of "generally acceptable" is compas.
My goals are just to play flamenco for friends and family and mostly myself, I do not intend to play professionally.
Playing for friends, family and myself at what level of guitar playing? I won't be a pro player. But I set my goal high. One day I want to be a world class player who can play at a pro level.
I think acceptable picado speed in flamenco music starts from 160 bpm. The question is do you want clean executed picado at 120 bpm or sloppy picado at 160 bpm? I would say clean executed picado at 200 bpm or more. But I want to hear the difference first.
I want to ask foro, all things being equal, is there any difference between picado at 160 and 200 bpm acoustically?
My point is everyone would rather hear clean precise picado at 100bpm than less clean and precise picado at 130bpm. I'm sure you know this.
Very true. Let me quote David Russel. He wrote the following on his website.
"It is better to listen to an easier piece played well than a difficult piece played badly. Never let your concert playing announce "Look what I can't do!" Your audience will be grateful."
quote:
I guess I'm trying to say the only thing for a hobby player that would need to be judged by the panel of "generally acceptable" is compas.
Depends on what you mean by generally acceptable. If someone play only for friends and family flamenco music with no cante and baile accompaniment, compas is not really a defining factor.
The question is basically, at what tempo is it ok to no longer feel and execute the rhythm. There are ācheatsā such as ligados that might be acceptable alternatives depending on the passage. But basically, you have to be able to play at whatever required tempoā¦.unless you donāt care about the rhythm of the music. In which case you can do whatever you want, nobody will care. Considering you already understand tempo markings and limitations, you are on the path already. A big starting point to help would be context. Rumba with drum machine, it is not 120 you need. You probably need to think of your limit, now, as 60 BPM, where there are 8 notes to a click. From there you can increase. Intermediate might be the same control between 80-90 bpm. Pros, in the 90ās, and the top dogs break the 100 mark regularly. Paco top speed is normally around 104-7, though I have heard him go past that. Good luck.
Funny though I've been practicing my picado recently and felt.some minor improvements and was thinking of starting a picado thread. š
However you usually get a url from a foro thread from 2006 with great advice but without that sense of discussion.you get from a live thread.
I tell you what. Post a vid of your 120bpm picado and ill record the same scale and post a vid too. Maybe get a little vibe going? Some critiques, some encouragement, Some tips
quote:
generally acceptable for picado speed
I'm not quite sure there is such a thing. Acceptable to whom? I mean if you don't wanna play pro and are only playing for friends and family? I imagine they will be a pretty accepting bunch and won't get too upset should your picado not be very fast.
I'd think a nice 120bpm Alegrias en compas with a relaxed, clean picado run would be very acceptable.
What is not 'acceptable' to anyone is sloppy, out of compas picado with messy sounding notes. And even your non aficianados family and friends ears would not accept that, even though they may tell you different, their brains wouldnt like it.
My point is everyone would rather hear clean precise picado at 100bpm than less clean and precise picado at 130bpm. I'm sure you know this.
I guess I'm trying to say the only thing for a hobby player that would need to be judged by the panel of "generally acceptable" is compas.
Yes im closer to 110 BPM that is pretty clean most of the time but I think with more practice and over time I can get to 120, so that is my realistic goal. It also depends on the scale, some runs really focus on the 1st and 2nd string, given the tension difference this really screws me up. For the most part though 100 is pretty effortless for me, once im warmed up at least. I've only been playing for around 10 months with around 60-90 minutes practice a day (sometimes more on weekends), so yes in hobby player territory as far as practice time, though I have a bit of a classical background when I was quite young and im a quick learner when it comes to patterns so the guitar always felt more natural to me. I will have to work up to the video though, still building up my confidence.
The question is basically, at what tempo is it ok to no longer feel and execute the rhythm. There are ācheatsā such as ligados that might be acceptable alternatives depending on the passage. But basically, you have to be able to play at whatever required tempoā¦.unless you donāt care about the rhythm of the music. In which case you can do whatever you want, nobody will care. Considering you already understand tempo markings and limitations, you are on the path already. A big starting point to help would be context. Rumba with drum machine, it is not 120 you need. You probably need to think of your limit, now, as 60 BPM, where there are 8 notes to a click. From there you can increase. Intermediate might be the same control between 80-90 bpm. Pros, in the 90ās, and the top dogs break the 100 mark regularly. Paco top speed is normally around 104-7, though I have heard him go past that. Good luck.
So intermediate would be 80-90 BPM with 8 clicks, meaning 160-180 BPM with 16th notes? That seems really fast, what if I never reach that speed?
Stu -> RE: Picado Speed (Oct. 4 2022 16:30:29)
quote:
compas is not really a defining factor.
Smithers, release the hounds.
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Stu -> RE: Picado Speed (Oct. 4 2022 16:34:49)
quote:
I've only been playing for around 10 months with around 60-90 minutes
So you can play 16th notes scale runs @120bpm?
I'm not trying to be inflammatory but prove it! šš
I've been at it over 15 years and im barely there
Mark2 -> RE: Picado Speed (Oct. 4 2022 16:35:24)
Alegrias is often played at 140-160, not that I can manage that, but it's the reality.
Stu -> RE: Picado Speed (Oct. 4 2022 16:39:50)
quote:
playing for friends, family and myself at what level of guitar playing? I won't be a pro player. But I set my goal high. One day I want to be a world class player who can play at a pro level.
I think acceptable picado speed in flamenco music starts from 160 bpm. The question is do you want clean executed picado at 120 bpm or sloppy picado at 160 bpm? I would say clean executed picado at 200 bpm or more. But I want to hear the difference first.
I want to ask foro, all things being equal, is there any difference between picado at 160 and 200 bpm acoustically?
I don't know where to start with this. [&:] does any of this make sense to anyone??
Yes mark I agree regarding the Algerias bpm. I was just saying, for friends and family, I cant see an issue with a slower version so all techniques are clean.
I've only been playing for around 10 months with around 60-90 minutes
So you can play 16th notes scale runs @120bpm?
I'm not trying to be inflammatory but prove it! šš
I've been at it over 15 years and im barely there
No not cleanly at 120bpm but thats my goal, I feel I will be stuck at 120BPM. Just so we are all on the same page, 16th notes would mean 4 notes per beat right?, a total of 48 notes per compass? though im working with 36 note picados than the remate closes the compass. Im comfortable around 100BPM, 110 is stretching it but totally doable for me, 120 is where it starts to fall apart so I feel I will be stuck here but if I keep at it I should be able to pull it off. Though im wondering if I should be happy with 120, Im not sure where i stack up with that speed, I mean it feels fast but not compared to professional players. Though I've been obsessed over my nails over the past 10 months with tons of trial and error, I take pictures and compare and I finally have a good shape, angle and length for picado which is a good compromise for other techniques aswell. This was an alegrias scale im working on for reference, so yes the rest of the piece is in 120 BPM aswell which I guess is a bit slow.
You play picado as best you can. If it asks too much of you, then step away. Is picado even scored in BPM, really?
Feeling is not conveyed by speed.
I dont know if it is scored in BPM, I figured it would be as the song can technically only go as fast as the picado. Though I suppose it can be modified with 8th notes and extend into a second compass instead.
Stu -> RE: Picado Speed (Oct. 4 2022 17:27:27)
quote:
Just so we are all on the same page, 16th notes would mean 4 notes per beat right?
Yeah that's it.
I'd say your are going great guns if youre there or there abouts after less than a year. 90 mins a day. I mean that's unbelievable. Maybe I'm just jealous.
Anyone else wanna chime in? Is that normal for someone tho progress that fast?? Or am I abnormal for being so slow!?
Well my instructor was impressed overall with everything as he said i had a great foundation, though i wouldnāt know either way, or how fast i should be progressing for that matter. I just assumed he said i was doing great as everything is done online and he was just saying that to be nice. I guess I could get a video going though eventually here. I get really nervous playing for others and my hands tense up, perhaps less so with a video as you can just record it again though. Im working on building up my confidence overall as itās really easy to make mistakes in flamenco. Though i found when it comes down to picado the nails have to be just perfect with a small margin of error which took a lot of experimentation and trial and error to get there, that and trying to make small finger movements.
Is that normal for someone tho progress that fast?
Maybe, IF you have classical background. Each case is individual depending on years playing classical and skill acquired/good teachers, but he could have been essentially primed up to about 110bpm already from his previous classical guitar studies, if he got to an intermediate level or so.
That said, getting to 120x4 , or in notes-per-second, getting to 8 nps, is much easier than getting to 10-11 nps (150-165 x4 ) and beyond.
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Is that normal for someone tho progress that fast?
Maybe, IF you have classical background. Each case is individual depending on years playing classical and skill acquired/good teachers, but he could have been essentially primed up to about 110bpm already from his previous classical guitar studies, if he got to an intermediate level or so.
That said, getting to 120x4 , or in notes-per-second, getting to 8 NPS, is much easier than getting to 10-11 NPS (150-165 x4 ) and beyond.
It was so long ago i dont really remember, though itās possible my fingers do. I started when i was 8 or 9 (im 31 now) and played for 4-5 years or so, i do recall playing a few recitals for 100+ people before, not sure how i managed thatā¦ i also was enrolled in the royal conservatory of music but i dont think i made it past level 3/10 as i hated the restrictions. I did pick up my electric guitar a few times over the years but it was rare. Is it not also possible that guitar at a young age rewires the brain making it easier later in life? Ohhh i did use Vaseline on the fingertips aswell when i was first learning picado, though I havenāt tried that in a long time. Im also somewhat ambidextrous, i can use a computer mouse with the left hand for example, in fact i make a habit of this to increase finger dexterity and brain connection, though not sure if that makes any difference.
What you said is true which is why i feel 120 is my max realistic goal, lolā¦it just looks impossible when you see other players do it. Though i said that about flamenco in the beginning for years which is why i never played, yet a rasguedo here, a golpe there and im doing all that fun stuff that i said i would never be able to do.
JasonM -> RE: Picado Speed (Oct. 4 2022 18:20:59)
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Someone please post some videos!! Mine is over 400bpm 1/4 notes.
Iām so fast I melt the nylon without lube. Hard being me!
Stu -> RE: Picado Speed (Oct. 4 2022 19:01:15)
Oh yeah! I forgot you had some classic training when younger. I would say your muscles and fingers remember for sure. But still impressive!
silddx -> RE: Picado Speed (Oct. 4 2022 19:38:06)
quote:
I don't know where to start with this. does any of this make sense to anyone??
Oh yeah! I forgot you had some classic training when younger. I would say your muscles and fingers remember for sure. But still impressive!
Thanks, well I guess my next focus should be on more videos, hopefully it will get me over this anxiety of playing in front of others...baby steps.
silddx -> RE: Picado Speed (Oct. 4 2022 19:40:43)
quote:
No not cleanly at 120bpm but thats my goal, I feel I will be stuck at 120BPM. Just so we are all on the same page, 16th notes would mean 4 notes per beat right?, a total of 48 notes per compass? though im working with 36 note picados than the remate closes the compass. Im comfortable around 100BPM, 110 is stretching it but totally doable for me, 120 is where it starts to fall apart so I feel I will be stuck here but if I keep at it I should be able to pull it off. Though im wondering if I should be happy with 120, Im not sure where i stack up with that speed, I mean it feels fast but not compared to professional players. Though I've been obsessed over my nails over the past 10 months with tons of trial and error, I take pictures and compare and I finally have a good shape, angle and length for picado which is a good compromise for other techniques aswell. This was an alegrias scale im working on for reference, so yes the rest of the piece is in 120 BPM aswell which I guess is a bit slow.
Do you know how to practice effectively, and safely?
No not cleanly at 120bpm but thats my goal, I feel I will be stuck at 120BPM. Just so we are all on the same page, 16th notes would mean 4 notes per beat right?, a total of 48 notes per compass? though im working with 36 note picados than the remate closes the compass. Im comfortable around 100BPM, 110 is stretching it but totally doable for me, 120 is where it starts to fall apart so I feel I will be stuck here but if I keep at it I should be able to pull it off. Though im wondering if I should be happy with 120, Im not sure where i stack up with that speed, I mean it feels fast but not compared to professional players. Though I've been obsessed over my nails over the past 10 months with tons of trial and error, I take pictures and compare and I finally have a good shape, angle and length for picado which is a good compromise for other techniques aswell. This was an alegrias scale im working on for reference, so yes the rest of the piece is in 120 BPM aswell which I guess is a bit slow.
Do you know how to practice effectively, and safely?
Im not really sure, considering as I have had two minor hand tendon injuries, practicing safely maybe not. My achilles heel has been excessive tension, im slowly getting better with that through warm up, light intonation exercises and not obsessively practicing the same falsetta for an hour straight, lol. I also incorporate some stretches and forearm deep tissue massage. As far as effective, I mean im still making progress but im always open to new suggestions and ideas. The rule of thumb I have for practice is if it's easy im doing something wrong, so when it gets fairly easy I move on to more challenging stuff putting my main focus on that, and just perfecting the old stuff in the background. I do however realize that making something close to perfect will also come in time and as I go into more challenging stuff, the older stuff seems much easier by comparison. Thats likely because IT IS easier since I've learned new skills and mind muscle connection, hand strength, accuracy etc.
While not true Flamenco, Vicente amigo played it so Im learning this in the backend to further help with left hand tension, parallel knuckles & form, intonation and stretches as there are some funky chords in here. Its been a great substitute for an exercise for me, im currently working on the tremolo part, so close to done. Plus its just a plain beautiful song, flamenco or not.
Mark2 -> RE: Picado Speed (Oct. 4 2022 21:16:30)
I'm not sure I wouldn't rather play it at a more suitable tempo and just omit the 16th note picado parts. Personal choice.....
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu
quote:
playing for friends, family and myself at what level of guitar playing? I won't be a pro player. But I set my goal high. One day I want to be a world class player who can play at a pro level.
I think acceptable picado speed in flamenco music starts from 160 bpm. The question is do you want clean executed picado at 120 bpm or sloppy picado at 160 bpm? I would say clean executed picado at 200 bpm or more. But I want to hear the difference first.
I want to ask foro, all things being equal, is there any difference between picado at 160 and 200 bpm acoustically?
I don't know where to start with this. [&:] does any of this make sense to anyone??
Yes mark I agree regarding the Algerias bpm. I was just saying, for friends and family, I cant see an issue with a slower version so all techniques are clean.
Thank you! I love psychology, I will check it out.
Edit: I made some comments on your other thread. Its funny as everything he said is more or less how I practice. I practice ass backwards from what most people would recommend, I speed up and slow practice out the errors after the fact. My attention is hyper focused on the errors, without the errors its easy to zone out and just play without proper hyper attention. I dont mess around with the metronome and what not not in the beginning, I get to where I feel im fairly proficient after I slow practice out the errors. Than I hyper focus on timing, hand position, nail shape and length etc. Also CPG's makes perfect sense, it explains how easy tremolos are to where you dont even have to think about it once learned.
The more and more I think about it, the more I think the 10,000 hour rule is not true. Its all a brain game really.
Oh yeah Iāve listened to this guy before! Heās very technical with the terminology in all of his podcast. Many of the points he talks about have been discussed here on the foro. He places a big emphasis on repetition and that sunken error correction process that happens with repetition. Well, I know all of us hit our picado speed barrier and it seems like no matter how many repetitions we do it never moves! Argh picado!
