Ricardo -> RE: Los Cantes Mineros (Aug. 25 2022 17:55:25)
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ORIGINAL: orsonw quote:
Because it focuses on the early epoc we don’t learn much about evolution of the various forms (if you recall I pointed out how the los Picaros tartaneros changed significantly from Chacon to Camaron and it seems it was the version by Valderrama that influenced that). I do recall, another one of your highly valuable posts. Linked below for anyone else interested. The whole thread is worthwhile, e.g. Henry posts a link to the 'Los Cantes Mineros' book two posts below. (I miss the even older foro times when there were others here like Norman, who could meet and discuss at your level of understanding.) http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=313974&appid=&p=&mpage=2&key=latest%2Cdiscoveries&tmode=&smode=&s=#314283 Yeah, I learned a lot of things since that thread and have revised some of my thinking. So the interesting fandango de Riva I mentioned earlier also has the thing where, like the old Cartagenera, the melody concludes the first 3 sung lines all to the 6th scale degree. Meaning in the key of C, the melody drops C-B-A and holds the A note and the guitar answers each line with C, F, C. That means only that F chord sounds “correct”. Whatever the origin melody was, the singers of these variations (and I keep finding similar styles with different names, such as Fandango de Trini 2, Rojo alpergatero Cartagenera etc), are sticking to it like glue, in the face of the Fandango structure. My first thinking was the singers wanted these tensions to hold and be affected by the Fandango progression. Like in the Mellizo Corte melody that also does this emphasis of the C-B-A… In that thread I point out how young Paco instinctively changed the chords to better fit the melody and later as an adult had learned better how to keep the Fandango form but stay out of the way of the dissonance. Pepe Martinez as well surprised me. So I now believe that the singers are inserting melodies into the formal structure and don’t care about the dissonances, because they were not constructing melodies with tensions in mind. It was the guitarists like Montoya that were dealing with the tensions in their own way to preserve the form, but the instincts of the later generations to change the formal structure are revealing that the singers were pulling melodies from outside sources and stuffing them into the form via the poetic delivery. This also means it is likely that Fandangos proper and these Levante songs with dissonance are likely springing from two separate sources, NOT the exact same one. I will also say that I have since read that the reason for two versions of Mellizo Malagueña is because when he was older and not feeling well, he sang a diatonic third under the original melody (the higher pitch version) to make it easier. This comes from some old guys that witnessed it in the juergas. It makes perfect musical sense, and I can imagine variants of melodies probably have similar origins (being diatonic harmonies either under or above some parent melody). In that sense, some of the dissonances could simply be unintentional. For example the picaros and other styles I described that emphasizes the 6th could have been under a melody that was simply hitting the tonic, which would have been consonant with those chords. A tired voiced singer would have “created” the lower harmony and it stuck as the main melody as in the case of Mellizo. OR….those diatonic melodies C-B-A resolving could have been the diatonic third ABOVE the typical malagueña descents that go A-G-F…where we play C major and it seems odd. Same with Taranto etc, B-A-G play a D answer.
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