Segovia and Yepe (Full Version)

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edgar884 -> Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 24 2006 15:48:31)

I heard a story that, Narciso Yepe was at one of Pacos show and a fan whent up to Paco to tell him how great the show was. The fan told him Narciso was in the audience, Paco asked what he thought and apperently Narciso said bad things. I can't remember where I heard this from.
Wondering if anyone knows the real story.

I think Segovia said once that, any young kid could play like Paco. or something like that.


It seems like there is more respect between Flamenco and Clasical players these days than in the past, or maybe they were scared of Paco.

I'd like to see Narciso play La Barossa. ya right.

Any body else have some stories or more info on this.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 24 2006 16:04:13)

Segovia wrote a glowing review of Serranito on the back of one of his albums.



edgar884 -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 24 2006 16:10:47)

Why did he say his then, weird ehh. "It was my task to rescue the guitar from the noisy hands of flamenco guitarists" [:)]



seanm -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 24 2006 16:42:10)

Segivia disliked flamenco guitar (at least early on) because he felt it was a crude folk instrument. His aspirations where to bring the guitar in line with other traditional classical instruments and he tried to distance himself from it's flamenco roots. A couple of quotes from the wikipedia

"Segovia claimed that he rescued the guitar from the hands of flamenco gypsies, and built up a classical repertoire to give it a place in concert halls."

"His first taste of the guitar was from a flamenco player, whose technique horrified him."

Personally, when I see players like Nunez, I see technique that is on par with classical but even Juan Martin's left hand does some weird things that would be considered 'bad habits' in the classical world. I agree with you that more classical players respect flamenco playing now but it's still not true all the time. I think the issue is that a great flamenco player (with great compas and feel but playing simple chords) doesn't seem like much to a classical player who judges technical ability on stuff like Bach suites where the left hand and memory work is much more difficult. But I think anyone whose appriciates good music will over look these things.

Sean



henrym3483 -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 24 2006 17:32:14)

flamenco has ballz, you can start a party playing flamenco cause it has bounce,swing, jive.

you cant really with classical pieces[:D]

some classical players i know envy flamenco players for the improvisation ability and the right hand tech.



seanm -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 24 2006 18:27:38)

Hey! Why do you think I switched to flamenco! I was at a GFA competion one year and met this professional flamenco player. He was twice as loud any classical players I'd met and could just play and play piece after piece (now I know he was improvising piece after piece :) ). We ended up hanging out a bit and did some playing. He said "You should play some flamenco, man. It'll really help your playing".

A few years later, after I stopped play classical for money and was free to play whatever I felt liked, I started flamenco. I've always considered it the "rock and roll" version of classical. More fun, easier to 'remember' and much more agressive. Now it's all I can think about!

Sean



edgar884 -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 24 2006 19:01:29)

I'm with ya there, I admit when I go to play my classical stuff now, it's a hell off a lot easier.


THis could be an interesting topic.[:)]



Ricardo -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 24 2006 21:50:58)

My parents were classical guitarists. They had respect for flamenco, in fact that is how I first heard it, from my dad's records. Unfortunately, classical guitarists in general have A LOT of misconceptions about flamenco. They see it more as flashy techniques. But at the same time, a lot of flamenco guitarists have little or no respect for classical players, or think that there is something wrong with you if you need to read music. I think the younger generation that I have met, has mutual respect for what is going, although there are still misconceptions. I was impressed by Scott Tenanat's Pumping Nylon.

Anyway, a big problem I can see is rhythmic interpretation. Nowadays classical players are better at doing rhythmical things, than those of Segovia's generation. So what happened is a lot of people went to Segovia and said wow have you heard PDL? He probably got tired of the same old defense and started to say things like there is more to technique than fast picados, fast runs. He still wanted to keep the idea of classical guitar as a more "noble" thing, you know, BACH is REAL music, even though a lot of young flamenco players had amazing abilities.

But IMO, no classical player in the world can play LIKE or as good as PDL. But, they don't need to really, it is different music, a different world. So why compare at all? Well what happened is Paco played Aranjuez. Ever heard Yepes? Like many other classical players the guy had no timing, no groove, the orchestra chases him left and right. Paco is maybe the only guy that plays the concierto with a solid rhythmic feel. In fact, in print Paco said that was the whole point of his interpretation. If I was a Yepes, I would take those words personally, but maybe Paco said this AFTER he performed. Whatever happened, Yepes said that Paco had no business crossing over into the classical world, and that he ruined the concierto. The composer himself (Rodigo) thought that it was very "exotic".

Paco's tone is NOT classical, and that is looked at as a big part of technique in classical. The flamenco player likewise sees the "flamenco sound" as part of the technique. Ever seen Bream talking to Pena about his "unrefined" sound? Give me a break. But that is what I mean by "misconceptions".

I feel very strong about this subject and have lots of stories, but enough for now.

Ricardo



edgar884 -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 24 2006 21:55:36)

wow I've seen that Breams vid with Pena in it.

I was curious only as to why musicians bad mouth each other so much, I think it is interesting.

thanx for the story Ricardo.[:)]

where can I hear Yepes version of Aranjuez[:)]



seanm -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 24 2006 22:58:36)

Ricardo,

I hear you. I think you have put it best by suggesting that they cannot be compared. However, if you try, it does make for great conversation. There is nothing like swinging solea por bulerias in classical but then again there is nothing like Bach in flamenco (well ... there's nothing like Bach anywhere for that matter).

Sean



nickeyg -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 25 2006 1:56:29)

One of the things that I think is best about flamenco and separates it from Classical is that writing is strongly encouraged or expected. Generally the mark of a great Classical player is to play someone else's piece and the mark of a great Flamenco is to come up with your own stuff. You absolutely need a strong combination of right/left brain or techique/creativity to be truly great which is o so rare in general. I think that is why Paco is so well liked because he has both. Classical is great but I've found that it relaxes people so much that it almost makes them want to go to sleep. Flamenco definiltely has more balls, Nick



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 25 2006 3:07:58)

The great thing about classical guitar is that you can play Bach on it. Bach, oh Bach...



Conrad -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 25 2006 3:35:50)

I love this subject guys, keep rapping it up.

I have not much to say in addition to what's been written, except that classical guitar is sterile to me after a while, unless it is played with the passion, technique, rhythm and freedom which I get from flamenco.

Grisha is nobly trying to break the barrier, and doing such a fine job he is, by jupiter.

Ric, I'd love to hear more of your stories on this subject. It's a great shame, the antagonism which still exists to a degree.

Nickey makes an excellent point which few would deny... creativity, it's hugely lacking in the classical community. Also Henry says flamenco is more sociable, which is so true, although classical's are not trying to be because it's a different beast. In any case, there are some wickedly smart people on this forum. I love it.

-Conrad

p.s. Haha, ya... Yepes attempting La Barrosa is a painful image in my mind.



pharmdaniel -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 25 2006 4:59:29)

Awesome topic!
I take CG lessons and have been wanting to do flamenco lessons for sometime now but have yet to find the right teach.
I self study flamenco and what I really appreciate from the flamenco mindset is rhythm first which is just electric when you have the compas in you. I don't think rhythm is stressed enough in CG at least from my personal experience, but rather tone, not making mistakes, phrasing etc. Those things are important but I slowly coming to realize that rhythm and groove is really the glue and common deminator of it all.

Thats what I love about flamenco, aweseome rhythm and improvisation stressed (I study jazz too). I think it is on a whole other level. Have you seen pepe romero play flamenco? Hes a great player though.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 25 2006 5:05:44)

Hmmm, looks like I'll say a bit more... I do actually have a problem with contemporary classical guitar--it seems to have a bit of a bias towards atonality. This probably sounds ignorant to the more educated forumites here, but it is what it is. I love the Baroque, Rennaissance, and Romantic repertoire, but somewhere in the early 1900's it started getting "weird."

Brouwer for example, is considered one of the geniuses, but I don't like what I've heard at all.

It does remind me a little of the progression to greater rhythmic (and to some degree, harmonic) complexity in modern flamenco. With all that is added, something seems lost.

Maybe I'm just getting old. But I can barely stand to listen to a 10 minute CG piece that stubbornly refuses to refer to any of the musical conventions that I know and love! :)



nickeyg -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 25 2006 5:33:43)

One other point is that flamenco guitar is written for the flamenco guitar. Bach was not written for the guitar, lute at times, but I think that makes a big difference. Not to say that Flamenco is easy. Sometimes some of the Classical hand pretzels just don't feel natural because they're not, Nick



John O. -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 25 2006 13:05:53)

I had a student once who wanted to learn fandango de huelva on the guitar. After a couple of hours with me, she started talking about wanting to bring a singer, I had the feeling she thought I was doing something wrong. Eventually she brought along a classical singer who believed to be able to sing a fandango de huelva off a sheet of notes.

As uncomfortable as it was, I led them throught the whole thing, correcting all the rhythmic errors, making the singer red in the face with embarrassment at every correction.

Then they wanted to try a Granaína, I quickly said "NOPE, NOPE, CAN'T DO IT!" [:D][:D][:D]

They never came back and I was glad, I think they thought I was a fake...



edgar884 -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 25 2006 15:35:04)

Great replies, I just got up so I'll say more in a bit.


I like the Idea that classical and Flamenco are two different worlds.

ANd yes classical can be very boring but it depends on who your listening too.

Thanx for the comments.



edgar884 -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 25 2006 16:22:41)

The world of classical can be very snooty, thier very protective of there culture. But so is every culture, this relates to prejudice and racism. Our culture is still racist in many ways.

Ive met people that said hey were did you get out of prison, just because of my tattoos. ANd were suprized to find that I play classical guitar and Flamenco, and also play in a heavy metal band. cant judge a book by its cover man.

I think people tend to be very protective of their turf. EXample. I did a Flamenco show at this mexican club and we were lucky to get out of there alive. They wanted their Miriachi music and had know interest in Flamenco at all. So it was stupid for my dancer to set that up, not a good Idea. So does this mean mexicans and spaniards can't get along no, but there is tension there. I think its the musicians who tend to change trends and mix musical styles together, later on it gets excepted.

Classical used to be so interesting to me and beautiful, but i find that the Flamenco world is more adapt to except anyone with passion for thier music and thier culture.

I find it useful to except things and be as non judgemental as possible. I started this Thread in hopes to find what people realy think and feal about classical and Flamenco.

Ok yes I would rather listen to THe Luzia cd than my Narciso Yepe cd, so does that mean I'm prejudice against classical, maybe I am. I think Flamenco is the most amazing art form there ever has been and it just keeps growing and growing.

More often than not though, I think classical and flamenco help each other, and the people that realize this are just better players.

On this Forum I see many classical players who have found the power of Flamenco.
I would be the first to admit that I think it is going to take a long time for me to be able to play true Flamenco, being that I'm a classical guitar player and have no andalucian ties what so ever. But I'm ok with that and I'm enjoying the Journey.

Classical and Flamenco two different styles and cultures that have more in common than we realize, but will always be totally diferent at the same time.[:)]

Hey cnotecon are you Conrad Adams ?



Skai -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 25 2006 16:28:17)

Frankly, it's impossible to compare both. They're plain different and both are amazing in different ways. Some say classical is boring, others say flamenco is all showy and not musical. It's basically personal preference whether you like it or not, in the first place.

Using Aranjuez as a comparison isn't a very good choice. If I'm not mistaken, Rodrigo composed it with the help of a flamenco guitarist. In the case of Aranjuez, the clear distinction between flamenco and classical is rather blurred, giving PdL an extreme advantage.

But what about PdL's interpretion of Manuel de Falla? They were just Spanishy interpretions and flamenco techniques. He was just taking the tunes and harmonies from the originals, and added other stuff to it. Just like a jazzy interpretion of Twinkle Little Star, sounds roughly similar but very different! And from a strict classical point of view, what PdL did was 'stole' from the compositions and could even be considered an insult!

Anyway, I feel that you should never use Yepes' Aranjuez as an example. I've seen a video of him playing it. Complete destruction of the composition, pathetic feeling and unrefined technique on his 'amazing' 10 stringed guitar. And remember that I equally love classical and flamenco.

To say that flamenco players were louder doesn't make sense either. The difference in volume is due to techical differences and the difference in types of guitars. Flamenco can get aggressive at times and this adds to the sound. Picado, rasgueado and alzapua sound particularly nice when strong and percussive, instead of sounding weak. Classical guitar aims to eliminate that kind of tone, it doesn't want strings slapping against the fretboard! It's meant to sound refined.

So why compare volume? Why ask Yepes to play La Barrosa? He'll destroy it. Can PdL play Capricho Arabe well? No thanks, I don't need a flamenco interpretion of a serenade. Plain ridiculous to challenge each other. Plus Yepes is a horrible classical guitarist in my opinion! [:D]



edgar884 -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 25 2006 16:39:10)

I don't think were comparing, just wondering were all the tension comes from between the two styles, I myself have no judgments on this just curiousity.

You make some good points though.

Two different worlds.

You really think Narciso sucks eh wow.



Conrad -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 25 2006 20:25:30)

Hi Edgar, ya that's me. What can I do for you, sir?

Speaking of that, I tried to change my profile name but couldn't figure it. Any ideas? Simone?



edgar884 -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 25 2006 20:56:14)

Ive come across a lot of your tabs on the internet, just curious if thats you, nice work. I just learned the Niquelao falseta, what do you think for a year at Flamenco. Its on audio video uploads. Your a creator of modern toque right. Are you on Flamenco teacher as well. And were are some of your uploads, I'll look around. laters[:)]



Conrad -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 25 2006 21:13:11)

Hey, nice, I don't know how I missed that. Very well done, good rhythm, I think you're ready to take it up to speed or a little faster.

Ya, ModernToque is my website. I'll be getting hard at some new tabs soon, so stay tuned.

No uploads from me, no equipment, but of course I'll share them when they come.

best,

Con



edgar884 -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 25 2006 21:26:03)

Thanx Conrad, I was a little hesitant about uploading that, so glad its ok. I'll be looking for your tabs. laters



Skai -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 26 2006 6:17:16)

As I've always said, some flamenco tone and feel are great in interpreting Spanish classics, like Sevilla, Ritual Fire Dance, Danza Espanola etc. Not too much, just insert some 'flamenco' feel into them to make them sound more authentic. IMO such pieces should not be played entirely with a pure classical tone, it'll lack the Spanish sound and energy.

Another contradicting point is that Yepes is said to have studied for some time with flamenco guitarists in order to 'improve his rhythm'. [:D] It still sucks as I can see! His tone is unrefined for classical, he's lacking in great technical ability and I find that his interpretions are lousy. Many classical guitarists are TONS better.

Thinking back at Aranjuez, you have to really watch Yepes' climax of Adagio to get what I mean. One word describes it best, and the word is 'joke'. Even a non-Spaniard like John Williams, Roland Dyens and many others, sound tons better. Yepes tried to pull an authentic continuous rasgueado off, and he did. At half the speed! [:D][:D] The sound was even worst than simply strumming up- and down-strokes.



edgar884 -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 26 2006 6:35:14)

What a great story Skai. I want to see this concerto with Yepe how do I get it.

SO maybe CLassical players learn more from Flamecos eh.
And not the other way around.

Except Flamencos usally can't do very good arpegios.

hummmmmmm interesting.[:)]



edgar884 -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 26 2006 6:43:31)

So Segovia is from spain right or am I wrong.

Who has some good stuff on him. I'll check it out.

I should know this duh.



Romanza -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 26 2006 9:21:37)

quote:

I'm with ya there, I admit when I go to play my classical stuff now, it's a hell off a lot easier.


Yes I must admit I sometimes revert to classical when I am getting frustrated with flamenco and not making progress. It makes me feel that I can actually play the guitar quite well, and play whole songs too rather than just mediocre snippets of fandangos and alegrias which is unfortunately where I'm at at the moment!

That said I can just about play 'Romance Flamenco' from Mel Bay's Flameno method book as it is the flamenco equivalent of 'Spanish romance' which was the first piece I learnt for classical!

(Although I'm not sure that switching between classical and flamenco is doing much for my technique with either..)



Skai -> RE: Segovia and Yepe (Mar. 26 2006 14:20:20)

Both Segovia and Yepes are Spanish, but they don't seem to be in the same boat as gypsies. When Segovia made that insulting remark on flamenco guitarists, he was probably referring to those roadside buskers who know a few chords and a few simple falsetas played with horrible technique. He probably wouldn't insult Montoya and Sabicas.



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