trying to understand the timing of this Paco Siguiriyas alzapua (Full Version)

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johnnefastis -> trying to understand the timing of this Paco Siguiriyas alzapua (Feb. 17 2022 21:29:01)

Hi all,

So I know Siguiryas compas for cante is elastic and I am probably over thinking this. But I have been studying this alzapua from Si Acaso Muero.

To me it sounds syncopated in that Paco accents the notes just after the typical rhythmic accents (3, 4 and 5 in the first compas). I have tried to notate it and it actually sounds pretty reasonable in Guitar Pro.

Anyone got any thoughts. I could play it free style and not worry but I am enjoying figuring it out rhythmically and then maybe I could use it in baile etc.



30 seconds in.

I was gonna upload the sound file from guitar pro but can't seem to do it.

Cheers



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Ricardo -> RE: trying to understand the timing of this Paco Siguiriyas alzapua (Feb. 18 2022 12:03:51)

The 4th 8th note should be above or with the third one. So everything shifts to the left one 8th note, and hence all the accents line up correctly. Also, they should all be 16th notes instead of 8ths notes. And I figured out with guitar pro, if that is what you used, there is an enharmonic tool you can click on the Db and it changes to C#.



johnnefastis -> RE: trying to understand the timing of this Paco Siguiriyas alzapua (Feb. 18 2022 16:53:11)

quote:

The 4th 8th note should be above or with the third one.


Ah ok that kind of makes sense.... trouble is the ligado is definetly there at the begining (i forgot to mark it as ligado). It could be just squeezed in as an effect.

The other problem is if you move everything to the left you end up with a gap at the end of the compas cycle.

Anyway like I said maybe I shouldn't attempt to square it up in this way. If you think its rhythmically possible and can be done I would seriously pay for the tab caus its driving me a bit crazy ha ha.

Thanks for the Guitar Pro tip btw! I have just attempted to attach my file by adding .txt to the end. I think it its downloaded and then renamed .gp it might be able to be reopened.

Cheers



Ricardo -> RE: trying to understand the timing of this Paco Siguiriyas alzapua (Feb. 19 2022 15:33:31)

quote:

The other problem is if you move everything to the left you end up with a gap at the end of the compas cycle.


No actually…when the stuff shifts back ward an 8th note, your quarter note rest is still a rest, but the music stops on the 11th QUARTER NOTE. If you want to have it choked, you can use an extra 8th rest. Again it is more clear if you had used 16th notes and an 8th rest at the end.

I am not gonna write it out for you, what you have is correct enough you just need it all to line up with the correct accents. The first beat look at the first three notes as a triplet if you want…or you can write it 5:4….your choice, but all the rest of the accents are clear.



johnnefastis -> RE: trying to understand the timing of this Paco Siguiriyas alzapua (Feb. 19 2022 16:40:28)

Thanks Ricardo,

I see what you mean.. I have tried a few way to group the first few notes but they all sound a bit screwy but it totally makes sense of the rest of the alzapua.

Here it is now and sounds like it could actually work in an escobilla. I guess the best thing is to really get clear in my head where the accents are and focus on that. The only strange thing is I would imagine the last pulgar down at the end of the first compas should be the start of the following compas.



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Ricardo -> RE: trying to understand the timing of this Paco Siguiriyas alzapua (Feb. 19 2022 17:44:01)

Now your beaming is all messed up. You can fix the first beat like I said….use triplets for the first three or else do a 5:4….that means 5 tuplet in the space of 4 notes. Then you can set your beaming when you do the 12/4 time sig. You can beam 4,4,6,6,4…

Because the alzapua is a 3 stroke technique, starting on count 5 as groups of 4 per beat, it crosses the bar line so that the up stroke hits count 1.



johnnefastis -> RE: trying to understand the timing of this Paco Siguiriyas alzapua (Feb. 19 2022 19:17:03)

Ah thanks, excuse the sloppyness, I was preoccupied with getting it to sound right in Guitar Pro rather than making it look right.

I think this is sounding pretty close. Just trying to work out if its 4 notes or 5 notes leading to that accent on the 3. This grouping of 5 makes it sound pretty good.

Thanks again



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mrstwinkle -> RE: trying to understand the timing of this Paco Siguiriyas alzapua (Feb. 20 2022 0:13:08)

Technically correct. Sounds a mess. Every genius makes mistakes.



Ricardo -> RE: trying to understand the timing of this Paco Siguiriyas alzapua (Feb. 20 2022 16:50:33)

Now totally wrong feel…I guess Im gonna have to write it out[:@][:@]



johnnefastis -> RE: trying to understand the timing of this Paco Siguiriyas alzapua (Feb. 20 2022 17:12:23)

Ahh man… ok let’s sort this over a quick Skype lesson. Is that ok with you?

Cheers



Ricardo -> RE: trying to understand the timing of this Paco Siguiriyas alzapua (Feb. 20 2022 17:54:05)

here....



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Mark2 -> RE: trying to understand the timing of this Paco Siguiriyas alzapua (Feb. 21 2022 2:17:15)

David Leiva’s transcription



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johnnefastis -> RE: trying to understand the timing of this Paco Siguiriyas alzapua (Feb. 21 2022 11:42:51)

Thanks guys! Ricardo, I cloned it in my guitar pro and sounds great.

Looks like Levia makes it fit by missing out that first upstroke of the Alzapua.
Also I can never get my head round the use of different bar measures... Much happier looking at Ricardos 6/4 measure to describe a whole compas.

The reason I was going a bit nuts with the begining timing is there is actually a big gap between the first downstroke of the alzapua (1 in my screen grab) and then the hammer on to e (2). (Then 3 is D and 4 is the alzapua upstroke) So I was trying to write that down but I guess thats where the compas stretches a little and then Paco actually playes it pretty on the beat and speeds up a little in the second compas to make it more intense.

Anyway I should probably shut up and just practice the thing now.

Thanks again

Simon



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Ricardo -> RE: trying to understand the timing of this Paco Siguiriyas alzapua (Feb. 21 2022 15:39:38)

quote:

The reason I was going a bit nuts with the begining timing is there is actually a big gap between the first downstroke of the alzapua (1 in my screen grab) and then the hammer on to e (2). (Then 3 is D and 4 is the alzapua upstroke) So I was trying to write that down but I guess thats where the compas stretches a little and then Paco actually playes it pretty on the beat and speeds up a little in the second compas to make it more intense.


Honestly I never felt a gap and the Bb bass note is felt as count 2 to me…as I am familiar with this type of phrases. The vagueness is caused by the up stroke which honestly could be intended to be simultaneous with the open D string (we see a similar thing happen later)…so as you pull off from E to D the thumb strokes upward at that same moment. The reason it doesn’t sound clear is actually because of Camaron screaming OLE!!…and as many times I annoyed my family with that rewinding in slow motion that first beat phrase, I never really heard anything different than straight 4 notes in one beat. So I don’t really hear a separation of 5 notes. The rhythm I wrote is a way to make it work, but 5 tuplets work, also 2 16th then three triplets…but again, I believe the intent to have the open D and the upstroke work together….so the very last 16th has to be the C note which leads into the strong accented Bb.

EDIT…looking at your screen grab you could interpret the hammer, pull and up stroke, as 2 32nd notes and a 16th. So if you count 1 e & ah…as the 16ths of beat one, then the hammer on “e” will be 32nd, the pull off a 32nd, and the up stroke lands on “&” as 16th. The last 16th is C, then beat two starts with Bb.



johnnefastis -> RE: trying to understand the timing of this Paco Siguiriyas alzapua (Feb. 21 2022 16:20:57)

Thanks so much for sharing all your thoughts on this Ricardo. Its cleared up a lot of confusion I had.

I am happy to just to aim for that Bb being 2 and then to practice the rest to tempo



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