Advice for learning from Juan Martin's book (Full Version)

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hb25 -> Advice for learning from Juan Martin's book (Feb. 12 2022 14:13:26)

Hi all,

Apologies for the novice question but I couldn't find the answer to this with a search.

I am a hobbyist guitarist and by recommendations found on this forum am going through Juan Martin's "Essential Flamenco Guitar"; the more recent reprint. I've been practicing the 4/5 finger emaii rasgueado for Verdiales / Tientos for about two months and am only approaching half-speed - though I probably can 'schraaam' it close to full speed.

I've read on this forum that it takes years to develop a good rasgueado. What should I do to progress through this book? Only play at half speed for a few years? Practice incorrectly by 'schraaam'ing at full speed until my rasgueado develops? I was always taught to never practice incorrect technique.

Thanks for any advice.



gerundino63 -> RE: Advice for learning from Juan Martin's book (Feb. 12 2022 16:11:35)

Welcome to the foro!

Generally speaking, play as slow as it needs to play in compas.
For the rasq. Train that seperately. Mute the strings and try to play xamii ( or any rasq. You like) very regular and speed up slowly.
Train not too much. Pain or tension is a no go. Do short sessions. Train also with no guitar. At your stearing wheel. The side of your jeans hem etc.



Ricardo -> RE: Advice for learning from Juan Martin's book (Feb. 12 2022 16:40:19)

The techniques, especially rasgueado, never feel the same way at half speed or slower. You need to learn how to do things within a lower threshold of tempo range. If this is seeming to be “impossible” then you don’t have the right idea about how the technique works. What I recommend for students is learn a-m-i first. Pretty easy. Then triplet jabs with pauses a-m-i-i, where the last i is up on the beat. Bigity bum, bigity bum, etc. Again, those two at the actual tempo you need them, not a lot slower.

The next thing is tricky but it is the key. YOu want to make the same triplet gallop rhythm as a-m-i-i, however starting i up FIRST. So i-a-m-i. The last i is DOWN on the beat. The hard part is the gap of time between i up and a down. You should learn that slow at first, but you can prepare it by….well watch this video:

At 3:00


Only after you can do that do you want to add the pinky into the same exercises. Hopefully you can see how doing the i-a-m-i, will set you up for doing continuous rolls.



mrstwinkle -> RE: Advice for learning from Juan Martin's book (Feb. 12 2022 19:48:01)

Does it sound like the original piece or an acoustically pleasing variation? Then you're doing it right. Or better than the original. Hendrix was better than Chuck Berry

BL-EEP the one-true-way mindset.

The continuing popularity of Juan Martin for teaching material confuses me. I don't dislike him - I even went to a concert to see him a few months back. He makes a living with flamenco for middle class Brits who don't do flamenco. IMO better to find great flamenco songs and search youtube for instructional vids. Or learn Spanish and find a teacher on Skype/Zoom.

10 hours of El Torta / Moraito chico on youtube will teach you more than 100 hours of Juan M classes.

This post is sponsored by Lidl wine offers.



BarkellWH -> RE: Advice for learning from Juan Martin's book (Feb. 12 2022 20:06:22)

quote:

Or learn Spanish and find a teacher on Skype/Zoom.


You don't even need to learn Spanish if you take classes from the Foro's own Ricardo Marlow.

Bill



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Advice for learning from Juan Martin's book (Feb. 12 2022 20:43:39)

If you're going to stick with "Juan Martin" be sure to find a copy of the first edition. It contains the advice to avoid damage to your fingernails by strictly prohibiting washing dishes.

That part was removed from later editions. I suppose it may have been seen as sexist.

Just kidding, of course.[:D][8D]

RNJ



hb25 -> RE: Advice for learning from Juan Martin's book (Feb. 13 2022 0:19:53)

Thanks all for the advice and replies.

I think I need to spend some time thinking about what realistic "short term" goals.

My goal was to be good enough to play (for free) the weekday lunch shift at a Spanish restaurant sin ser despedido por el empresario. As was pointed out, Juan Martin gives concerts so I don't even need to be that good for that purpose. I love flamenco and guitar but I have a demanding job, am a husband, and a father, and lucky to get 30 minutes a day to practice.

It's true that I need lessons but I don't think it would be worth anyone's time given my limited practice time and complete lack of natural ability. Also, since my job moved online permanently because of COVID, I just can't spend any more time "online" for lessons. Guitar is my escape from an otherwise electronic life.

Are there better books than Juan Martin? I learn best by seeing written music then hearing then practicing.



Flamenco4U -> RE: Advice for learning from Juan Martin's book (Feb. 13 2022 6:29:34)

quote:

I've read on this forum that it takes years to develop a good rasgueado.

I wouldn't say, as a general rule, that it takes years to develop a good rasgueado. If someone teaches you correctly how to execute each rasgueado patter, you practice with a metronome, and your nails are filed in a way that works best for you, you could have a vey nice-sounds rasgueado in less than a year.

I've only reviewed one Juan Martín book, "Guitar Method: El Arte de la Guitarra." I borrowed it from a friend because it had a zapateado that was a nice study, and a nice piece at that.



Flamenco4U -> RE: Advice for learning from Juan Martin's book (Feb. 13 2022 6:38:39)

quote:

10 hours of El Torta / Moraito chico on youtube will teach you more than 100 hours of Juan M classes.


This is true. To get good at flamenco guitar, you MUST listen to cante! I just came across this astonishing track by a young El Torta. https://music.apple.com/us/album/tangos/848236469?i=848236490



Flamenco4U -> RE: Advice for learning from Juan Martin's book (Feb. 13 2022 6:40:51)

That's hilarious!



TrickyFish -> RE: Advice for learning from Juan Martin's book (Feb. 13 2022 10:29:27)

I’ve found the “flamenco explained” book by kai narezo to be better thsn jusn martin’s book, but i am using both to learn the basics of flamenco. I also have a local teacher.



ric -> RE: Advice for learning from Juan Martin's book (Feb. 13 2022 14:57:29)

YouTube is good (including Ricardo marlow) but you have to weed out and find what you like.
Paco Pena "toques flamenco" is good. Not easy.
Even though I'm not a huge fan of his playing, David Leiva has dvd's (solea, buleria, etc.) where the video shows him playing, shows the compas (what beat you're on) shows the chords, and can be altered to play with or without singing, cajon, etc., so it's good for showing.
Also, I tend to practice rasqueado when I drive, with my hand resting on my hip, freeway driving where it is safest, just don't tailgate!
good luck!



hb25 -> RE: Advice for learning from Juan Martin's book (Feb. 18 2022 4:03:02)

@Ricardo I gave your advice a try for practice this week. It was helpful and certainly made playing more enjoyable. The struggle I have is from my musical background ami is hard to time i landing on the downbeat in the triplet without playing it (very) slowly at first. eami is easier for me to time since I can start the eam triplet on the upbeat.



I've decided to start looking for a local teacher more intensely. If I can't find one, I'll move to an online one as I find myself only wanting to play guitar these days. That said, I still have a few more questions.

1) I am currently using a borrowed classical guitar that is also a nostalgic family heirloom. So, I don't feel comfortable changing the tuners (which need replaced) nor adding a golpeador. I've seen on this forum francisco navarro flamenco student guitars recommended but I've also noted that it appears the taller has passed to his son Marlon. Does anyone have experience with the Marlon guitars? Are there other suggestions?

2) Can anyone comment on the commonality of the early por medio and por arriba chords in Juan Martin's book? I am currently working on perfecting those. Would my time be better spent on other chords?

3) One of my milestones is to learn the section of Juan Martin's "El aqua se va para el rios" which I know as "Detras de tuyo se va". He comments that this is "the second of three sung versions". Does anyone know which album this version is on? and/or youtube link? The one I am finding on youtube doesn't seem to have matching cante.



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