quote:

ORIGINAL: qzack

Hi all,

I wonder how people came up with certain alternate tuning to accomodate certain nuance and ease of playability to get the voicing the composer wanted. Has anyone got any idea where do we start with alternate tuning? Some colleague of mine suggesting that we can go with open chord tuning first to figure out but I’m not really sure if that’s always the case. I’m wondering how the creative process was going on these alternate tuning pieces like on Antonio Rey’s Dos Partes de Mi and Tomatito’s Caminillo Viejo for example. By right, perhaps even Ramon Montoya’s Rondeña also need to be taken into account as well as I am not aware of any other tuning until he came up with one

I suppose it’s quite interesting to explore what we can do with alternate tuning. Let me know what do you guys think

Cheers

Qzack

quote:

Is El Viejin the only flamenco player to use the Hijaz tuning? (It seems pretty unique/rare.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

What is "Hijaz tuning"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

"Tonality" and "tuning" aside, as one who has always had an interest in linguistics, I still wonder where the term "Hijaz," as applied to music, came from. The western strip of Saudi Arabia running along the Red Sea known as the "Hijaz" (or Hejaz) I mentioned above was part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire until 1918. Perhaps the term was applied in the manner mentioned above by Konstantin and Piwin by the Turks?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

What is "Hijaz tuning"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

"Tonality" and "tuning" aside, as one who has always had an interest in linguistics, I still wonder where the term "Hijaz," as applied to music, came from. The western strip of Saudi Arabia running along the Red Sea known as the "Hijaz" (or Hejaz) I mentioned above was part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire until 1918. Perhaps the term was applied in the manner mentioned above by Konstantin and Piwin by the Turks?

I downloaded a bunch of papers back when we were discussing maqams and as I recall in general the Persian framework preceded the Arabic and Turkish version, but will go back and rummage through to find out specifically when and where did "Hijaz" become a musical term. Update soon.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

"Tonality" and "tuning" aside, as one who has always had an interest in linguistics, I still wonder where the term "Hijaz," as applied to music, came from. The western strip of Saudi Arabia running along the Red Sea known as the "Hijaz" (or Hejaz) I mentioned above was part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire until 1918. Perhaps the term was applied in the manner mentioned above by Konstantin and Piwin by the Turks?

I downloaded a bunch of papers back when we were discussing maqams and as I recall in general the Persian framework preceded the Arabic and Turkish version, but will go back and rummage through to find out specifically when and where did "Hijaz" become a musical term. Update soon.

[Some sources below]

It appears that "Hijaz", or "Hejaz" in Persian music, is indeed referring to the place/region name where the mode or scale fragment originated from. Another Arabic maqam - 'Iraq - appears named on the same principle.

As to when this happened, consulting my sources it seems that it would have happened way before the beginning of the Ottoman occupation of the Hejaz region in the 16th century. There are surviving musical treatises from the second half of the 13th century by the so-called 'systematists' in which 'Hijaz' or 'Hejaz' is already mentioned as a mode/maqam. Farmer seems to think that the region of Hijaz was already developing its own musical ideas while borrowing from Persian music starting around the late 7th century - only some 50 years after the death of famous Al-Hejaz local Muhammad:

“During the reign of Mu'awiya I (661-80), Persian slaves were brought from Al-'Iraq to work on the buildings being erected at Mecca, and their singing immediately attracted attention just as it had already charmed the people of Al-Medina. The first to take advantage of this exotic art was Ibn Misjah, who is claimed to have been the "first who sang the Arabian song copied from the Persians," or again that he was the "first who transferred the Persian song (ghind*) into the Arabian song."

“More important perhaps were the other innovations of Ibn Misjah. It is highly probable that the Arabs of Al-HIra and Ghassan possessed the Pythagorean scale, although those of Al-Hijaz still retained the old scale of the tunbur almizam. When Al-Nadr ibn al-Harith introduced the *ud (lute) from Al-HIra about the close of the 6th century, some foretaste of the Pythagorean scale may have been introduced at the same time. Yet there is no certainty on this question. All that we know is that the Arabs of Al-Hijaz had a system of music that was different from that of Byzantium and Persia. We get this information in the life of Ibn Misjah already mentioned.

“This musician, we are told, was responsible for grafting sundry "foreign" musical ideas upon the native practice. Here is the whole passage from the Kitab al-aghdm* :

“"In Syria, he [Ibn Misjah] learned the melodies (alhari) of Byzantium and received instruction from the barbiton players (barbatiyya) and the theorists (astukhusiyya) . He then turned to Persia, where he learned much of their song (ghina'), as well as the art of accompaniment. Returning to Al-Hijaz, he chose the most advantageous of the modes (nagham) of these countries, and rejected what was disagreeable, for instance, the intervals (ndbaraf) and modes (nagham), which he found in the song (ghina) of the Persians and Byzantines, which were alien to the Arabian song. And he sang [henceforth] according to this method, and he was the first to demonstrate this [method] and after this the people followed him in this." “

The extensive borrowing of musical ideas, including mode names, is also discussed by Farraj and Shumays:

“The names of many Arabic maqamat can be traced to the Persian language: for example, Farahfaza (from Farah Faza); Suzidil, Dalanshin (from Dil Nishin); Suznak, Rast, Sikah (from She Gah); Bastanikar (from Basta Nigar); Jiharkah (from Chehar Gah); and Nairuz (from Nowruz). The reverse is also true, with Persian gusheh (scale fragment) names taken from Arabic, such as Hejaz (from Hijaz), Hosseyni (from Husayni), and Oshshagh (from ‘Ushshaq). Similarly, many Arabic maqam names come from the Turkish makam system, such as Sultani Yakah and Buselik, while some Turkish makam names, for example, Hiçāz, Irak, Huseyni, Sűnbűle, and Uşşak, trace their origins to Arabic.”

Some interesting books that are freely available:

1. A History of Arabian Music to the XIII-th Century, by H.G. Farmer, published 1929: https://archive.org/details/historyofarabian030364mbp/page/n5/mode/2up

2. Historical Facts For The Arabian Musical Influence, by H.G. Farmer, published 1930: https://archive.org/details/historicalfactsf030523mbp/page/n7/mode/2up
(in this one Farmer seems really pissed at a certain "Miss Schlesinger" who critiqued his 1925 paper "Clues for the Arabian Influence on European Musical Theory" in her 1925 response "Is European Musical Theory Indebted to the Arabs?" - Farmer mentions her in this book no fewer than 136 times.)

3. The Modal System of Arab and Persian Music, A.D.1250-1300, by O. Wright, first published in 1969 as a Dissertation: https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/29733/1/10752705.pdf (pdf) and later in 1978 as a book.

A very recent modern and comprehensive treatment:

4. Inside Arabic Music, by Farraj and Shumays, published 2019 by Oxford University Press. Info: https://www.maqamworld.com/en/book.php

quote:

Sorry, I confused El Viejin’s “tonality” with “tunings”.

"Sastipén Talí" (Fandangos de Huelva) is in the Hijaz-Nahawand Phrygian dominant scale D#, an unusual tonality for fandangos.

“Caño Roto" (Soleá por bulería) is in D#Hijaz.

“Algo que decir” (Bulerias) tuning is 1=E, 2=B, 3=G, 4=D, 5=A 6=B, described as a “modern tuning”.

Rafael Riqueni’s “Vivencias” (Tangos) is described as in the key of “F#Hijaz” (por Taranta).

quote:

However I am curious about any details (other than naming of scales) relates to our discussions on the relationship of those systems to specific flamenco guitarist operations. Any insights there? For example the Vargas method books….any new info reinforce his take on the relationship to flamenco?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

Konstantin,

Many thanks for your research into the origin of the term "Hijaz" or "Hejaz" as applied to the music under discussion. Your formidable powers of research and ability to locate and tap into appropriate sources is, not for the first time, a boon to the Foro membership. Again, thanks, amigo.

Should we be fortunate enough to meet somewhere in the future, dinner and a bottle of wine will be on me.

Bill

quote:

Some might say Montoya came up with the Rondeña after the old lute tuning that was used (where the G was dropped to F#). Not sure if this is the case. The resultant sound of Rondeña is D lydian when you take into account the scale used mainly. This is very exotic IMO in terms of classical guitar music, so I am not so sure.

quote:

My reaction is sort of, "Were we in D Lydian, or were we in C# Phrygian?"

quote:

ome might say Montoya came up with the Rondeña after the old lute tuning that was used (where the G was dropped to F#). Not sure if this is the case. The resultant sound of Rondeña is D lydian when you take into account the scale used mainly. This is very exotic IMO in terms of classical guitar music, so I am not so sure. Right away we see similar figures used as Taranta ligados in the 2-4th fret area. My personal belief is he was trying to expand on the “toque levante” sound. This also accounts for his famous falseta that mimics the Levantica cante. The open G chord sound is simply shifted up a set of strings for an open D chord sound, in context.

quote:

Was "the old lute tuning" used in flamenco? Were there any other alternate tunings used in flamenco prior to Montoya developing the Rondeña tuning?

quote:

The other tonalities appear on recordings by Montoya…Taranta, Minera, Rondeña, making him a supposed creator (some contemporaries also used Taranta tuning).

quote:

What is the Taranta tuning?

quote:

Very sorry I meant to type TONALITY, not “tuning”.

quote:

ORIGINAL: machopicasso

quote:

Very sorry I meant to type TONALITY, not “tuning”.

I was so confused. There is NOTHING on the internet about the "taranta tuning"!

quote:

The main point, if you had followed also the rest of what I wrote, was that it is believed only por medio and por arriba were known “keys” used by flamenco guitarists, and by the earliest recordings with Montoya, he is associated with Granaina and Taranta keys. Because guitarists would alter the tuning in-terms of pitch deliberately (tune the entire guitar down a whole step for example using Granaina), it is believed the “toque Levante” (Taranta) key was developed with capo 3 as an alternative to dropping the pitch to match the singer’s vocal range [essentially the absolute pitch of A was preferred, and guitarists did not want to use por medio or por arriba, so would alter the tuning down a whole step so B=A or use capo 3 in F# to achieve the same pitch]. Granaina toque was known to exist before Montoya (Ocon score shows it from 1860s), so therefore, Taranta might be associated with Montoya coming on the scene anyway, nobody knows for sure. What is known is the two “new” toques were Minera and Rondeña, both introduced by Montoya for singers in the 1920’s, and he also expanded the toque Granaina at the same time.

quote:

When you say "using Granaina" do you mean playing music associated with Granaina or something else?

quote:

Were they tuning the guitar down a whole step just to accompany one song or (what I guess is more likely) to accompany all the songs for a given singer?

Given that the capo had already been around for a while (supposedly, the end of the 18th century), were flamenco guitarists using it in the way you described (i.e. as a substitute for tuning down) in the late 19th or early 20th century before Montoya?

quote:


Most likely, if a single cante were needed to be accompanied lower (necessitating the drop tuning of the entire guitar), then a live performance would require the Tocar to place the capo 2 frets HIGHER for all the rest, compared to “normal”, rather than waste stage time tuning down then back up. We only know about what happened on studio recordings, and what we hear by both montoya and other players is Granaina tonality dropped in pitch as needed, or Taranta tonality with capo at 3, or thereabouts.

Since Montoya was the first solo instrumental flamenco guitarist to record (after a strong push from a family friend to do so), the alternate recordings on the double CD release reveal a drop pitch of the entire guitar with no capo for a bunch of palos. I am sure this was deliberate to facilitate some singer nearby (rather than a conscious choice to slack the strings for solo guitar playing). However, we notice Ramon’s nephew do a ridiculous thing of dropping pitch a 4th (!!!) to do his rubber band ligados with the RH twirling in the air, so who really knows?

For sure we don’t know about “scordatura” or alternate tunings from standard relative tuning, before Montoya introduced Rondeña, and I was only pointing out that in addition to THAT, comes expansion of other tonalities in standard tuning as well. Just because Montoya was first to utilize some of these on recordings, doesn’t mean in the real live world of gypsy toque that it was not already going on, or even predating Montoya’s birth. We simply have no evidence.