Strings Tension & the Bridge (Full Version)

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lohan -> Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 17 2021 11:28:38)

Hi..

I have a question..and I need a detailed reply please...



There is 3 photos attached from different bridges for Flamenco Guitar.

Suppose that I use ej45 for each 3 guitars..

In which Guitar based on its bridge and the "angle" that string has on the bridge:

1) string has its real tension?
2) string has higher tension?

Thanks a lot



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Ricardo -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 17 2021 15:11:38)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lohan

Hi..

I have a question..and I need a detailed reply please...



There is 3 photos attached from different bridges for Flamenco Guitar.

Suppose that I use ej45 for each 3 guitars..

In which Guitar based on its bridge and the "angle" that string has on the bridge:

1) string has it real tension?
2) string has higher tension?

Thanks alot




You can’t tell from bridge only. It is about scale length and neck angle which affect action (how hard it is to push the string down to the fret wire). That is why the bridge saddle is adjustable. However of the three guitars the top one probably feels best for the right hand flamenco compas, the bottom one has more a classical set up.

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lohan -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 17 2021 15:37:25)

Hi Ricardo,

Thanks for replying...

I would like to focus on the role of the "angle" of string on bridge here.



No.1: 2.6 mm/6.6 mm
No.2: 2.5 mm/7.4 mm
No.3: 2.4 mm/8.1 mm


plus the angle of string on bridge, Can I conclude that on the guitar No.1: my EJ45 has lower tension?

AND: the angle of string on the bridge No.2, help me to have higher tension on my EJ45?



etta -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 17 2021 16:53:37)

The answer to your question; lower the saddle on the bridge to about 2.5 mm on bass and maybe 2.3 on treble at the 12th fret using high tension strlngs. If unsuitable, then lower or raise the saddle accordingly; not rocket science? I have all of my guitars set this low, or lower, using Savarez, Corum Alliance HT strings. For me it is a set up that allows comfortable playability and great power and projection from the guitar.



lohan -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 17 2021 17:17:15)

Thanks for reply Etta,
I know it is not rocket science.. But i have not more than 20,000 Euro on my pocket to buy several guitars till finally find the guitar that is fit to me by chance. I can only buy one guitar in my life, without touching it, just by looking at some photos. And i should decide it is suitable for me or not by looking its photos and analysing its details.

Members of foroflamenco.com should know that asking a question is just asking a question. That's it. The person who is asking his questions is not a fool, but just has some questions. Lets respect to each other and try to undrestand our problems. Thanks all



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 17 2021 17:29:58)

If:
1.) the scale lengths of all three guitars are the same,
2.) the same string type is used on all three guitars,
3.) the strings are tuned to the same pitch on all three guitars,

then the static string tension is the same on all three guitars. The break angle at the bridge has nothing to do with it.

Note that I wrote "static." The flexibiity of the top, and potentially the break angle at the bridge can affect the "feel" when playing. If the guitar top is easily deformed or the saddle is higher off the top, the "feel" may be softer.

I say "may be" because the subjective feeling while playing depends upon the responsiveness of the instrument. An instrument that responds loudly to a light touch can feel "softer" to play.

In addition, see what Ricardo says about neck angle.

RNJ



lohan -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 17 2021 19:03:04)

Hi Dear Richard Jernigan
Thanks a lot
Thanks for your time and your attention
🙏



Escribano -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 17 2021 20:56:47)

I'm with Richard and Ricardo on this, though I have never felt the need to delve quite so deeply and would never buy a flamenco without being able to try it out.

All things being equal and it being at rest, physics says that the tension must be the same.



lohan -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 17 2021 21:10:15)

Then I think there is need to discuss about the differences between 12-hole bridge
& 6-hole bridge and its affect on string tension.




kitarist -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 17 2021 21:21:20)

Please don't load metal weights on your guitar strings; they may swing and damage the guitar body [;)]

Richard has it exactly right; and this video has nothing to do with anything (if you think it contradicts what you were told here, you are wrong).



lohan -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 17 2021 21:26:56)

I told nothing. I just asked some simple questions



Echi -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 18 2021 11:00:06)

quote:

No.1: 2.6 mm/6.6 mm
No.2: 2.5 mm/7.4 mm
No.3: 2.4 mm/8.1 mm


Lohan, I suppose you need some extra advice:
1: the problem of the set up of your 1st picture is if the break angle allow for enough pressure on the saddle or not: in other words the tension is the same with regards to the top (as Richard said) but if you have a poor break angle you are at risk of buzzes: this may be sorted out by making new holes in the bridge. In other words it’s not a matter of tension or perceived stiffness for your right hand but you must anyway check the string pressure on the saddle is enough (seek for Alan Carruth website and check for the free article about break angle).
2. 6.6 mm is a low set up which may work well with guitars with a stiff top (hard “pulsacion” as they call it) but also be too low in case the top is kind of flexible.
I’m not saying is necessarily wrong but I for one would check the top stiffness and eventually the cause of a set-up under 7 mm at the bridge.
You should know you cannot go further down in the future by lowering the saddle.
3. to lower or raise the action of 1 mm at the 12th fret entails to lower down or raise of 2 mm the bone at the bridge saddle.
This means that 3 mm action would bring your bridge saddle to 7.4 mm. The neck angle looks correct.
Hope this helps.



lohan -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 18 2021 11:06:00)

Dear Echi,
Thanks a lot.

I trust to your reply because i see two important keywords on your reply: 1)break angle . 2) pulsacion .. it shows that you completely know that you are talking about what and understood my question. Thanks for your useful reply. Your reply is valuable for me.
🙏



Echi -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 18 2021 11:15:30)

All the advices of the 3D here are valuable.
Ricardo in particular is a pro-player with a lot of experience and wrote a lot in this forum about the right action at the bridge.
My point is just that 6.6 mm is a measure you have to check.
I had to make a new fretboard to correct a nice guitar with a similar set-up (a Sanchis Carpio) as in my case there was a problem with the neck angle while I still have a nice Bellido with similar numbers which is perfectly ok.
Good luck.



lohan -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 18 2021 11:19:53)

You knows me as Lohan, but Ricardo knows my real name. I have sent several private messages for Ricardo and I sent my lots of Thanks & Respects to him and I directly said him that I have learnt a lot from his Golden words.



Ricardo -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 19 2021 15:13:16)

quote:

No.1: 2.6 mm/6.6 mm
No.2: 2.5 mm/7.4 mm
No.3: 2.4 mm/8.1 mm


How sure are you of these numbers? If they are true, the bridges are all too low for me with normal tension strings. Guitar number 1. I would set up to 7mm or higher to get close to 3mm at 12. The other two guitars I imagine buzz really bad with those numbers so raising the saddles takes them into uncomfortable classical set ups to stop the buzzing. “Hard tension” strings are relative marketing labels and vary between brands so no guarantees they would stop buzzing and increase sound output.

Also sound output is not about break angle behind bridge. And break of zero still sounds loud enough, but as echi said, the zero angle means the string will slap or buzz on the saddle itself, and intonation will be flat. So break angle between 2 and 88 degrees will work 😂. The reason raising the bridge boosts sound output is because that lifts the strings higher off the fingerboard allowing the string to vibrate with wider dynamic range without hitting the frets. Now I used to believe a steeper break might increase strength to an under saddle piezo, but again experiments showed that is not a big deal either. 12 hole tie blocks are an option to repair a bridge that has too high 12th fret action and bridge is too low already (often because the neck moved forward), so that one can lower the saddle a bit more. But the reason luthiers build a new guitar with 12 holes is it became trendy due to a wrong belief that the physics of the break angle is significant.



lohan -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 20 2021 7:56:01)

Thank You so much Dear Ricardo, I always learn from You and I always trust to your words and knowledge..

I don't like to take your time more than this for this topic, but as a short answer i should say that my source for those numbers and also for those photos is Solera.. because my final decision is to buy a guitar from Solera.



Echi -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 20 2021 10:43:38)

I don’t think they have a micrometer or at least they used to rely on a steel ruler a couple of years ago, not sure nowadays.
A string ruler cannot give you numbers like 2.6 or 2.7 but they may send you pictures of the action at the bridge or saddle.



lohan -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 20 2021 11:07:01)

yes. I know you are talking about what. I agree with you.



Ricardo -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 20 2021 20:04:18)

Yes get photos with the ruler actually in the photo too, for example here is my string length along D string:



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lohan -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 20 2021 21:20:32)

🙏 Thanks a lot



kitarist -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 20 2021 21:29:02)

quote:

for example here is my string length along D string


No way, scale of ~674mm? Or did you start the tape at 1 inch at the other end? (25.6 in = 650mm) Sorry just curious; I know flamenco guitars can have 660 or 665 or 667mm scales..

EDIT: Never mind, I guess they do exist - here's a 1972 classical one by José Yacopi, exactly 674mm: https://www.vintage-guitar-world.com/shop/jose-yacopi/



Ricardo -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 21 2021 15:59:09)

quote:

No way, scale of ~674mm?


String not scale length but yes, it’s long. (Scale is measured to 12th fret and doubled in case of compensation on the back end)). Believe it or not this guitar (Faustino Conde) appears to have been built using inches rather than metric. Any Luthiers notice that type of thing, or know why?



Echi -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 21 2021 21:29:45)

I’m not sure there is a clear reason behind.
Since Ramirez introduced very long scales for Segovia in the sixties and seventies people started experimenting with different strings length which proved to work quite well with flamenco guitars and particularly with Conde.
These researches were not anchored on solid physics (at list not as advanced as it is today) but mostly in traditions and experiments - always with respect of proportions.
A nice e book to make an idea is “The Argentinian guitar” where a luthier compares famous historical instruments comparing proportions, frequencies, woods etc. Andrea Tacchi also studied a lot the proportions of old guitars to draw his plantilla, following the golden rule of Fibonacci.
It’s interesting also what Bruné wrote about Torres that he probably used tools in inches he got in Sevilla, as english tools were of the highest quality available at his times.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 22 2021 6:28:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

for example here is my string length along D string


No way, scale of ~674mm? Or did you start the tape at 1 inch at the other end? (25.6 in = 650mm) Sorry just curious; I know flamenco guitars can have 660 or 665 or 667mm scales..

EDIT: Never mind, I guess they do exist - here's a 1972 classical one by José Yacopi, exactly 674mm: https://www.vintage-guitar-world.com/shop/jose-yacopi/


The first guitar I owned had a string length of 690mm. It was a full fret longer than the 1a Ramirez blanca I owned a few years later. I was totally ignorant about guitars when I bought it in Paracho from Ramon Zalapa, who had a guitar making workshop that employed ten people. Zalapa was not a luthier himself, as far as I know.

Later I learned that the scale length was fairly common in Mexico, in instruments used by the trio romantico guitarists who played the bass line. I tuned it down a step and capoed it at 2.

The "Rawlins" Stradivari guitar has a scale length of 29 inches (736.6mm). It seems to me unlikely that with gut strings it was tuned anywhere near today's pitch.

RNJ



etta -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 22 2021 16:43:44)

Regardless of the complicated explanations here about string tension whether it be scale length, 12 hole bridges, tension built into the top, etc. etc., this is what I experience. If I use high tension strings, it enables the action to be lowered. And, if the strings are lower to the frets, it is easier to chord, move rapidly from one note to another, up and down the neck. And, generally with high tension strings the additional volume or projection will compensate for lower strings over the top.



lohan -> RE: Strings Tension & the Bridge (Jul. 23 2021 9:52:00)

Thanks Etta
Thanks for your time and your attention



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