RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Full Version)

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Andy Culpepper -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 26 2021 17:05:16)

Is there enough saddle height to bring the action down to around 3 mm on the 6th string? (i.e. about 2 extra mm of saddle height)
That might help bring back some of the sizzle in the bass. Some flamenco guitar basses can sound "flat" with higher action.



estebanana -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 27 2021 0:53:26)

Yeah this is a highly volatile situation, you take your life and the lives around you into danger by even touching this guitar. It could at any minute snap shut, fold in half and catch you or a loved one like a snapping bear trap. The fire Dept will have to be summoned to extract the victim with the jaws of life and by then it could be too late.



estebanana -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 27 2021 2:46:08)

I’ve turned it over in my mind all night and finally decided I should give some little known historical background on Reyes’ guitars.

Very early early on it was determined that Reyes made potentially combustible guitars, a few of them had been seen spontaneously combusting. This news reached the US Military via the air base at Moron de la Frontera around 67’ when a guitarist was hired to play at a party on base. A scientist from DARPA happened to be visiting that week and saw the conflagration caused by a Reyes guitar and he decided to acquire one and take it back to the lab.

The team he headed worked on a secret project to find out why these seemly innocent guitars were really deadly incendiary devices. After six months of intensive work they cracked the secret and developed a kind of land mine based on the structural tendency of Reyes guitars to implode and become anti matter which could vaporize time and space in certain controlled areas. Sadly these guitars were reproduced in DARPA labs and used as land mines in Laos along the border with Vietnam. Today there are hundreds if not thousands of Reyes clone guitars buried inches under the surface of the earth in a remote area in Laos. Nobody is allowed to go there and this area is monitored by satellite and drone surveillance systems.

These lab created Reyes’ are of course more potent than the originals, but one should not ever think for a second that an original Reyes couldn’t take your head off if you make a wrong move. Whoa unto the fool that plays a wrong tono because these guitars will bite back.

I’m just saying, like now you’ve really been warned.



FelixH -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 27 2021 15:10:08)

Well now I may never touch or even look at the thing ever again!



FelixH -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 27 2021 16:13:19)

Andy, I feel like there is space to lower the saddle a little. If I could afford to I would take it to a luthier for a tune up right now.



JasonM -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 27 2021 16:18:47)

quote:

Everything moves, even when stopped for a certain duration. If it’s under tension it’s eventually going to move again. As it deteriorates through time it will let go and fol


Oh fine fine fine. Another thing to fix. Sigh. [:D]



Morante -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 27 2021 16:25:32)

quote:

In my opinion Reyes is a great maker but as consistent as other makers like Barba or Bellido or Montero (to mention few).


I have never understood how Reyes became so famous: Montero was from Córdoba too. His guitars were much better finished and sounded just as good: favourite of many fine tocaores, such as Manolo Dominguez, El Rubio. I have always regretted not buying one.




FelixH -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 27 2021 17:12:14)

I used to own a Montero Aguilera Blanca a few years ago, I sold it in favour of a José Lopez Bellido peg head. It was a great guitar with beautiful sound and fantastic separation between basses and trebles but noticeably heavier than any other flamenco guitar I have ever played. I was sad to sell it but one of them had to go and the Bellido was just so light, loud and resonant despite the ebony pegs taking some getting used to.



JasonM -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 27 2021 20:18:41)

quote:

I have never understood how Reyes became so famous: Montero was from Córdoba too. His guitars were much better finished and sounded just as good: favourite of many fine tocaores, such as Manolo Dominguez, El Rubio. I have always regretted not buying one.


I thought it was Vicente who got him the world wide recognition? My theory is that Vicente was in the right place at the right time and got an exceptional guitar that even he himself never found a replacement for.



estebanana -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 28 2021 1:28:18)

quote:

hought it was Vicente who got him the world wide recognition? My theory is that Vicente was in the right place at the right time and got an exceptional guitar that even he himself never found a replacement for.


It was the other way around. Vicente got discovered and mentored into a great career with more general public visibility than big Paco, Vicente made it into new music markets that Paco didn’t get into in the beginning of his career. Vicente was like the M TV star of flamenco internationally and it was Reyes who was lucky to have his guitar placed with Vicente.

If you went to a Vicente concert in the US or outside Spain when he started touring it was like a big thing. He was backed by lots and lots of money in promoting. All that put a hyper focus on his gear, as fame does for any star solo guitarist.

It’s no mystery that Reyes blew up into the guitar that collectors wanted. I watched guys who owned Porsches and turned big deals in commercial real estate compete with the each other to acquire a Reyes of the same year of near Vicente’s. They couldn’t play, they just wanted to collect CD’s and guitars and be on the scene to go to espectaculos- they’d disappear after the show and then the poor boys and girls would eat dinner with the artists and try to have a little party at someone’s kitchen.

Maybe you wonder why he picked a Reyes? Hometown pride?



RobF -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 28 2021 2:33:06)

Vicente Amigo did not make Manuel Reyes a celebrated guitarrero, he made him an expensive one.

Let’s not forget that Manuel Reyes was already described as “one of the great guitarerros” by David George in his book “The Flamenco Guitar” which, if the preface is an indication, was published in 1969. At that point in time, Vicente would have been two years old. The interview with Sr. Reyes, contained in the book, was conducted when Reyes was 33 years old, which would place it in 1967, the year Vicente was born.

I think it’s a matter of a highly talented young Cordobán visiting the shop of a highly talented and well established local guitar maker and trying guitars until he found one he loved. Manuel Reyes, not being a fool, would have recognized the exceptional talent of Vicente and I have a pretty good feeling he made sure the lad was presented with some of his best sounding and playing instruments for evaluation. It was probably hometown pride at work on both sides.



estebanana -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 28 2021 3:20:31)

quote:

ot forget that Manuel Reyes was already described as “one of the great guitarerros” by David George in his book “The Flamenco Guitar” which, if the preface is an indication, was published in 1969. At that point in time, Vicente would have been two years old. The interview with Sr. Reyes, contained in the book, was conducted when Reyes was 33 years old, whic


Yes, after Vicente took a Reyes out and the prices rose, Reyes’ were traded and sold like Barba’s and de la Chica’s or Gerundino. They were all in the same price range. Then all of a sudden those guitars stayed in the under 7000.00 range ( a new Barba in 2003 was $4000.00 ) and a Reyes after 1990 was getting shopped for 11,000 to 30,000 dollars-



Echi -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 28 2021 7:07:16)

I agree.
When Vicente was the new thing in flamenco, and even Tomatito passed to Reyes, prices went quickly up as never before.
Good guitars with a mad price.
In fact they are quality guitars, with a very distinctive tone and from a consistent maker with a certain allure (an old guy who used to hand build his guitars in the centre of Córdoba for decades): add to these circumstances that Vicente and Tomatito (and now Rey) play almost exclusively Reyes in concert and that Reyes built around 1000 guitars in his career and you find the perfect top pricey item for the big dealers.
Gerundino couldn’t be as consistent because of his drinking problem. De la Chica got seriously ill in the sixties. Barba and Bellido got famous players (De la Pura, Manolo Franco and occasionally Tomatito and Habichuela) but not as famous of Vicente.



estebanana -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 28 2021 7:37:23)

The funniest thing of all was that Vicente received several guitars from Lester De Voe as well… and hmm? Well what happened to those? 😆
Sometimes in the art world a painting that’s not recognized as top tier gets written about or evaluated by a top historian and this can change the potential auction value. But maybe the picture doesn’t go to auction and the owner donates it to a museum. And perhaps that art historian who reevaluated the painting has a back door relationship with the museum, which very much wanted that particular painting. And then when the donor gives the painting they receive a larger tax deduction for the charitable giving, because an art historian affiliated with a particular museum gave the painting such attention that it drove up the price.

People claim the guitar world hasn’t reached that level of cynicism and value creation, but who really knows when it comes to the very high end guitars.



agujetas -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 28 2021 8:05:24)

It’s interesting though that Vicente hasn’t had a similar effect on Graziliano Perez. His guitars don’t seem to be revered, even though Vicente has used and endorsed them. Makers like Reyes, Barba, Gerundino etc must have had something extra imo.



RobF -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 28 2021 9:49:12)

Vicente was using Reyes during the upward trajectory of his career and it was then that he became inextricably associated with Reyes in the minds of the public. I’m not sure it matters what he’s played since then.

That period might have also been a bit of a golden age for the flamenco guitar, in general, and I also think the nature of the times themselves had a hand in establishing the names of some of the guitarreros. The international market hadn’t been exploited to the extent that it is now and these were the best of the makers available to the Spanish players. Maybe their guitars had something extra when compared to instruments made today, maybe not, people would have to be a lot more honest with themselves, and perhaps a little less gullible, to really get an accurate measure of that. We tend to mythologize the past and the unfamiliar, perpetuate that which becomes familiar, and the power of a name will often have a strong influence on how a player will perceive an instrument. Most certainly this all comes into play when it comes to desirability.

The only sure bet is a good guitar is a good guitar. The rest is human nature at work in all its facets. It can be observed right here on the Foro.



JasonM -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 28 2021 15:17:49)

quote:

It’s interesting though that Vicente hasn’t had a similar effect on Graziliano Pere


Soon after that Video of Vicente playing a Perez in his shop in Downtown Cordoba, Perez moved to a much larger factory type shop on the outskirts of town. Sales were booming. I know a Turkish guitarist named Cenk Erdogan. Perez made him a guitar pro Bono as well during the same time period to drive publicity . He said the guitar sounded really good but the finish was really bad. This has been mentioned here before as well.



Morante -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 28 2021 15:58:46)

Virtually all of the decent players in Córdoba had a Reyes. Merengue always played one. Since he taught Vicente, it is not surprising that he too played Reyes. Paco Serrano has several: one is a really great peghead from 1979.

Reyes always favoured players from Córdoba and often failed to honour order from extranjeros. I was once asked to accompany a un Inglés, who did not speak Spanish, to the taller.

He ordered a guitar. It never came, although he called every year. Reyes always had another excuse. His behaviour over the guitarras of el hijo was even worse.

I remember a flamenco bar in Córdoba where the resident player had a Reyes with a hole in the tapa where he had always golpeado. Perhaps he was an aficionado de Willie Nelson. Since the bar was about 500 metros from the taller de Reyes, I asked him why he did not have it repaired. He said that it didn´t bother him!!

Bueno, hay muchos buenos guitarreros hoy en día; no hace falta pagar un precio ridículo.



Ricardo -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 28 2021 17:20:29)

quote:

I have never understood how Reyes became so famous


I managed to acquire one for a student and was frankly very impressed with the thing. It sparkled like no other guitar I had played and I spent a week with her and composed several falsetas. Pegs were smooth as butter. I knew the guy that was receiving it would just keep it in the closet. I could understand why it was so expensive at the time. This one was a 1970s peg head.

Vicente and Tomatito and Nuñez were the only big headliners in the 2000s that did solo guitar concerts in large venues here in USA. In 1999 Gerardo showed us his Reyes and it did not sound better than his conde so he sold it. He waited many years to receive it (on Reyes waiting list for years) and paid way more than double than a conde at the time (4000 for a conde, 8000 for a Reyes back then). But the fidelity of modern guitar recordings really made the Reyes of Vicente and Tomatito sparkle. I feel that the fact those two where in the public eye in USA, coupled with outlets such as Guitar Salon International driving the market, inflated the price of Reyes unnaturally. I remember a conversation on the phone with a dealer over there that a Reyes from the 70s would be 10 or 15K, but one that was the same year as Vicente’s they wanted 20-30k for the damn thing. So mainly, I blame them.

And a sort of secondary blame goes to Archangel and what he did with the Japanese market produces this bizarre scenario where a decent normal guitar is so rare to come by in the mainstream market that its price tag is inflated to ridiculous high brackets. I feel Reyes owes a bit to this “Archangel legend” bs that these guitars are “special” and nearly “impossible” to acquire.



FelixH -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 28 2021 20:06:49)

As I said before the guitar didn’t impress me right away and I still feel that it could do with some work by a luthier but having played it for a few days it is sounding better to my ears especially the trebles. Maybe I needed time to adjust and adapt my playing or maybe it just needed opening up again.
I almost walked away but still bought it mainly as I got a good deal on it due to the condition and got to inspect it in person before deciding and knew I’d regret not taking the risk, I can always sell it on if I need to!



Echi -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 29 2021 16:31:12)

quote:

a decent normal guitar is so rare to come by in the mainstream market that its price tag is inflated to ridiculous high brackets. I feel Reyes owes a bit to this “Archangel legend” bs that these guitars are “special” and nearly “impossible” to acquire.

Some Reyes are like that also. I agree with your statement though.
As I said, I think they are definitely quality guitars, but I found some are extremely good and other not at all.
Our judgement can rely just on the guitars we try.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 30 2021 4:27:15)

quote:


I was beginning to feel tense, but now ...


Oh, that's nothing. Just a little touch-up needed.[:D]

But seriously, it shows the bridge was glued on to the spruce quite well, since spruce came off with it. I am surprised this doesn't happen more often, what with the cross-grain construction.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 30 2021 4:35:20)

quote:

But seriously, it shows the bridge was glued on to the spruce quite well, since spruce came off with it.


I don't know...it looks like the glue didn't hold particularly well on the treble side of the bridge, which combined with the runout in the top allowed the bridge to lift and rip into the top where it was glued well. I would be curious to know what led to that happening or if it just happened spontaneously, but clearly this shows the potential danger of excessive runout in a top [:(]



estebanana -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 30 2021 7:07:17)

That is a totally different guitar than the one which is the topic of the thread, Robge posted a Santos

But what I see is half and half, a bridge that has lots of rosewood fragment still stuck to the top on one side and another where the top material ripped. It suggests a failure of the bridge on the treble side first, which probably caused a fast whipping up of the bridge that broke the material on the bass side and popped out that flake of spruce.

I wager the guitar had some contact with extreme weather that degraded the glue bond on the treble side, such as humidity or car heat ( see Estebanana’s law of guitar thermodynamics) etc. that caused a slow motion degradation of the bridge glue on the treble side. Once that reached a critical condition of letting go, the tension of the strings just pulled up the other side.

Although it’s odd, it’s not impossible. Bridges are strange because sometimes they lift from behind and moisture gets in there ( sweat?) and the back peels up until less than half the bridge glue surface is holding the bridge on. It says that way for maybe months. Then there are other times the bridge just peels off as a whole at one time. I’d suggest this phot shows these two things working at the same time. A slow degrading of a glue joint until it hits a critical tipping point, and then it releases and that one spot that’s glued better breaks instead of releasing.



RobJe -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 30 2021 12:49:41)

News of the quality of Reyes guitars seems to have reached cultural anthropologist David George from Wisconsin by the 1960s – but he did spend a lot of time in Spain. In spite of this reference, I would be interested to know if Reyes guitars were relatively unknown in the USA before Vicente’s recordings.

Reyes’ reputation and the price of his guitars were already quite high in Spain in the 1960s. Ivor Mairants, the main importer of quality guitars at this time felt that by the time import duty (before we joined the EU of course!) had been paid he would never be able to sell them. He approached Reyes who agreed to make guitars with minimal decoration designated ‘Tipo C’ which were sold in London in the mid to late 60s.

There were two other ways for British guitarists to get hold of a new Reyes at a price below what Mairants charged. One was to travel to Spain and bring one back – by far the best option. At that time the duty was nearly 100% and guitarmakers wrote out a ‘cheap bill’ for considerably less than half what you paid. Customs Officers, familiar with the cheap plywood guitars brought back by tourists, looked at you pityingly and split the value into case (biggest share, with no, or minimal duty) and guitar. The second was to ask Pepe Martinez to bring you a guitar. Pepe, who was from Seville, is widely known for championing Reyes’ guitars and for introducing him to Barbero. The lyrical qualities of Reyes guitars were sell suited to Pepe’s playing. He had a wonderful 1924 Santos which he used in his concerts and I suspect that he was searching for possible replacements. There was a vibrant flamenco scene in London with plenty of Spanish immigrants (economic migrants and those escaping from Franco’s limpieza social and lot’s of Brits taking dancing and guitar lessons. I have no idea how many Reyes guitars arrived via Pepe but he travelled to the UK at least once a year for nearly 20 years.

I don’t know if this is the only case but Marcos, in his book Flamenco Legend: In Search of Camaron De La Isla found that the guitar he ordered would be used for Pepe’s concerts in the UK before it was handed over. Pepe intended to use if for other concerts in Europe and tore a business card in half giving it to Marcos telling him to turn up later (at a bar in France I think) where he would be able to collect his guitar by matching the other half of the card which would be in the possession of the bar owner.

As for today’s prices, what should a luthier do if there is high demand for their guitars? Go into factory production? Agree to sell total production to a single dealer in Japan? Construct a waiting list? Reyes chose the latter. As in the case of Ignacio Fleta, no matter how much the prices increased the list kept growing. I remember places on the Fleta list were up for sale in London in the 60s.

Rob



Echi -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 30 2021 14:24:09)

No matter how good you are but a flamenco guitar player starting nowadays wouldn’t ever reach the prices of a Reyes without a dealer pushing up your guitars or the chance of making money through some speculation.
Re: Reyes in the sixties or seventies, I think his market was less proficient than Gerundino (championed by Pena) and probably at the same level of Barba.
Probably Mario Escudero owned a Barba (I think Bruné wrote it) but didn’t use it live.
Arcangel used to be extremely regarded (and expensive) at his times but purposely decided to focus on classical guitars as he didn’t accept the way business used to be done with flamenco players: he said none of them wanted to pay the right money for his guitars...



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 30 2021 14:54:39)

quote:

but clearly this shows the potential danger of excessive runout in a top


I think that's a good point, Andy. If there were no runout, I suppose the bridge would have popped off more cleanly, unless the guitar had been constantly kept in stable humidity conditions--which becomes less likely the older a guitar gets.



estebanana -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 30 2021 15:45:47)

quote:

I remember places on the Feta list were up for sale in London in the 60s.


There is not a lot of cheese in Japan, I’ve put myself on a Feta list. But I had no idea the hardships of WWII lasted so long in Britain. I can’t imagine paying to be on the feta list.

Oh well as Francis Bacon says: champagne for your real friends and real pain for your sham friends.



ernandez R -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 30 2021 15:49:39)

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

quote:

but clearly this shows the potential danger of excessive runout in a top


I think that's a good point, Andy. If there were no runout, I suppose the bridge would have popped off more cleanly, unless the guitar had been constantly kept in stable humidity conditions--which becomes less likely the older a guitar gets.



When I first saw that photo and noted the run out of the top I had to wonder how that piece of wood made its way into a guitar top and not the wood stove? It looks as though it's at least 15:1 out? I've split most of my spruce from local logs myself but I've also had some old blocks rough milled that I've re sawn and can't say I've had the runout any more then the thickness along the full length.

Wouldn't it be ironic if this kind of runout, although structurally inferior, was sonically superior?

HR



estebanana -> RE: Is it possible to revive an old guitar? (Jun. 30 2021 15:56:41)

BTW Reyes was well known in the US and David George’s book ‘The Flamenco Guitar’ was a best seller for a time. It’s a book that can still be found in many libraries in the US even though it’s out of print. It was a very popular book in the California public library system, where lots of flamenco enthusiasts from the US come from. Reyes was just as known as the other flamenco makers and played by guitarists on the west coast.

Also remember the duties bringing in a guitar in the 60’s from Spain to US wasn’t that big a deal. The dollar against the peseta enabled myriads of hippies to escape the draft by spending a year it two in Spain. It was cheap and trendy to get away. By then even Morocco was sedate compared to a decade earlier.



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