Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Full Version)

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johnnefastis -> Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 11 2021 8:23:44)

Zendalex and I were chatting on the "Who out there learns entire PDL pieces ?" thread about having a go at Ricardos fantastic tutorial.



For those who don't remember the old days of challenges we used to post mp3s anomonously with psudonames. Then people who participated and a few others ranked the pieces.

Personally I think it might be cool to reduce the competitiveness and just post videos and get honest feedback on technique etc.

But thats probably just me not wanting to come last again.

Also I think its some pretty serious work to learn both falsettas so maybe we could split them so people choose one or both to study.

What do you think? Anyone else in? Any thoughts on format?



agujetas -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 11 2021 9:15:10)

I’ll give it a go! I’d be happy just posting a vid for some feedback.



zendalex -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 11 2021 12:13:16)

I am also in, just to confirm. Many thanks for starting the thread. I think we just post what we learned and make iterations, i.e not necessarily posting only once and the final best version.



johnnefastis -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 11 2021 12:24:59)

quote:

I think we just post what we learned and make iterations, i.e not necessarily posting only once and the final best version.


Ah great... Thats a good idea. Less of a challenge and more of a show and discussion I like that approach. I just checked the old challenge threads and they seem to have disapeared anyhow.

Shall we set a deadline to post first attempts just to have something to work towards? Obviously people can join in whenever but deadlines help me get my **** together [:D]


For example 9th of July would be a month from today, that time scale would work for me.

Another idea is... those that submit could chip in and pay for group class and zoom beer with Ricardo.... if he is up for that. Might be a nice way to share feedback.



zendalex -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 11 2021 15:20:50)

quote:

Another idea is... those that submit could chip in and pay for group class and zoom beer with Ricardo.... if he is up for that. Might be a nice way to share feedback.


I would love that.



joevidetto -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 11 2021 16:12:17)

quote:

Another idea is... those that submit could chip in and pay for group class and zoom beer with Ricardo.... if he is up for that. Might be a nice way to share feedback.


I'm in on that - Ricardo is a great teacher.



kitarist -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 11 2021 17:37:08)

quote:

I just checked the old challenge threads and they seem to have disapeared anyhow.


They are there, just have to make sure the filter for 'Display topics from last' is set to 'all topics' rather than the default '30 days'.

I am up for this too, for the El Tempul falseta.



Ricardo -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 11 2021 21:21:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zendalex

quote:

Another idea is... those that submit could chip in and pay for group class and zoom beer with Ricardo.... if he is up for that. Might be a nice way to share feedback.


I would love that.


Sounds good.



johnnefastis -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 11 2021 21:30:21)

quote:

Sounds good.


Amazing 5 of us in and Ricardo up for a group class!!! Will be fun 🤩 and a great way to learn and get to know each other better. Let’s see how far we can get by the 9th of July. I think post what you can at whatever speed you are comfortable with. Then it’s pretty open to all levels.



Schieper -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 11 2021 23:29:54)

Awesome idea. Unfortunatly I was lost already 2 minutes into the tutorial so I think I just enjoy the watching and listening. So gor for It!! :-)



johnnefastis -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 12 2021 11:57:01)

Hey Schieper, let us know where you are lost and maybe we can help in this thread. I think there is a lot there for every level. If its the technique thats tricky maybe you could just do the pulgar section at 10:40. If its its the music theory stuff... thats super cool and interesting, but you could ignore that.

Of couse you need some understanding of Buleria compas but there is loads of examples out there to help with that.

I am sure if you join in you would get tons out of it. Especially if we do the Zoom thing.

Cheers



JasonM -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 12 2021 17:34:37)

I’m still polishing up Paco tutorial 1 [:D]



ernandez R -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 13 2021 7:02:36)

The have no business trying to play a PDL piece but wouldn’t mind following along and watching a zoom session and of course it tossing more ten a few shekels into Ricardo’s guitar case for daring to lead such a merry band.

HR



johnnefastis -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 13 2021 10:15:24)

quote:

no business trying to play a PDL piece

I started out thinking that but tbh I think his playing is so rhythmically clear its great to study, even if its a challenge. Just pick tiny fragments to start. Ricardo will probably have better sugestions for where to start but I think as I mentioned before maybe have a stab at just the pulgar section.



joevidetto -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 13 2021 12:51:07)

quote:

have no business trying to play a PDL piece


Ricardo has given some good suggestions in the past, and I can add what I do.

The first thing is -
1. listen to the falseta repeatedly while you tap the compas, and be able to hum along with the melody (if you can hear it lol)
2. find what notes or chords occur on the compas beats and use them as an anchor
3. have a slow-downer - Amazing Slow Downer (http://ronimusic.com/) or Transcribe (https://www.seventhstring.com/xscribe/overview.html - it is indispensable - of course, Youtube now offers speed settings so it is the next best thing - use it to help you with steps 1 and 2
4. IF you have reasonable good music and tablature - learn to play little bits slowly and in proper rhythm, then work up the speeds - PDL's stuff sounds amazing even when slowed down - so you can't go wrong no matter what tempo you play it.

If you try to do this, you will have already learned a lot. If you are having trouble with this, I'm happy to skype to work on it together with you. In fact, I'm hoping this could blossom into a 'falseta club' with a similar format, except people would be available to live-video meet (skype) together to collaborate before meeting for a lesson with Ricardo. The tricky part would be picking which falsetas to do - in this case it sort of evolved with Ricardo's tutorial. Of course - I'm biased toward PDL's later period falsetas.

Ricardo - feel free to add.

PS - if anyone has the music/tab for this falseta, it would be a big help.



Fluknu -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 13 2021 16:19:42)

It's tempting. The thing is that I'm working on other subjects now. I might join and do a tiny parts.

Good innitiative



Fluknu -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 13 2021 16:22:05)

By the way, a good way to work on the video is to dowload the video from youtube. Here's a downloader: https://yt1s.com/en6

The I use VLC and can work with slow mode and loops.



zendalex -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 13 2021 17:24:48)

Ok guys, let me be da bold one and post my progress. Things like learning new stuff from youtube is my weekend activity anyway, so I will unlikely progress more till next Sunday.

Anyway, here is the first falseta, medium tempo.
Its good Amazing slow downer is mentioned already, as it is indeed amazing. And slow down button on youtube is no good as we want 1/4 speed for transcribing, and the quality of sound is basically **** on youtube at that speed. The way I learn these days is:

--Capture video via any screen capture. On smatphones it is standard feature.
--Feed this in the slow downer. It works with mp4 as good as with mp3.
--If I get the melody but unsure about fingering, vlc on both pc and phone has a slow down which doesnt corrupt the sound same way as youtube.

https://youtu.be/o_CbT0U3xAA



johnnefastis -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 13 2021 17:41:45)

Woah good work Alex. I’ll be lucky if I get it smooth and that tempo in a month.

Nice to hear people’s transcribing hacks.
I discovered this recently. Great for downloading YouTube or Vimeo

https://jdownloader.org/

Then I have amazing slowdowner on my phone and transcribe on my computer.

Btw is it my mistake or was this recorded at about 280 bpm ??? Insane.



JasonM -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 13 2021 18:15:03)

Sounds pretty good Zandelex. One piece of advice I might give would be to work on anchoring the thumb. Watch Ricardo’s Vid and notice how he’s always anchoring during the arps and picado. The intro to the first falseta makes a great exercise for this.



Ricardo -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 13 2021 19:29:44)

Nice job. You changed a lot of LH fingerings. Not a big deal but wonder if that is your personal choice or you already learned this falseta from another source? Here is the original fingering in case anybody wants the exact fingering paco uses, at 2:00




zendalex -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 13 2021 19:34:37)

quote:

You changed a lot of LH fingerings


Hi Ricardo, thanks. Actually I learned this right from slow downer, and it doesnt show the video, so I kinda played what i heard. As this is just a first cut, I will next check how you/Paco do it. Probably strange to learn and then re-learn, but thats how I am. Always iterations for me.



zendalex -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 13 2021 19:44:48)

quote:

anchoring the thumb


Ooh, that is the topic which there is no consensus around. You know I had a thumb tendon injury about 2 years ago, time I tried to play alzapua ad nauseam. Apparently did it with not enough relaxation in the thumb so screwed it a bit. And about that time Grisha lowered his rates and I jumped (being el cheepo) - he personally advised me to remove the thumb from 6th string. He said - you dont need the thumb for anything (here mostly mean arpeggios and picados). Of course it could be due to my injury, but we had a number of lessons with him after that and I repeatedly asked him about anchoring and he repeatedly said - I dont need to anchor. He showed me examples playing same things with and without anchoring.

My personal discovery was in fact that during picados, without anchoring the thumb, you should get to the point that the hand is stable due to your rest stroke ending up on the next string. The hand sort of anchors at precisely that moment when the finger goes through a string and rests on the next. In fact if I was to start from scratch - I would make sure to stress this - the hand must be stable regardless of the thumb being anchored or not. The staccato playing helps a lot to understand this concept.

And I guess I do practice these days this and that way, and both ways help each other. You do get more stability with thumb anchoring, but i firmly believe this is not the only way one should practice.



zendalex -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 13 2021 19:45:52)

quote:

Woah good work Alex. I’ll be lucky if I get it smooth and that tempo in a month.


thanks very much. Please post and I see a lot of people are willing to help here.

Btw Paco plays most of his bulerias at 240-250 bpm.



joevidetto -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 14 2021 13:34:03)

Here's a little spin on this falseta challenge - how about seeing if you can take the spirit of the falseta and your inspiration from it and SIMPLIFY it (or 'create' your own, simpler variation), so it is within your range to play - and submit that for us to share, critique, and discuss.

Or - if you are very advanced - don't SIMPLIFY it - just change it - even into something more difficult (if that's possible lol) that is still tasteful.



johnnefastis -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 14 2021 14:01:23)

Sounds like a great idea. I have just got the first one down slowly so gonna keep working on it. Simplifying or taking a bit of the second one is a good idea. Will see how far I get.



zendalex -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 14 2021 14:45:04)

quote:

or 'create' your own, simpler variation


Sounds interesting.. But you have to be a composer of sorts..



joevidetto -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 14 2021 15:48:02)

quote:

But you have to be a composer of sorts..

another way to say that is "you have to noodle around with your fingers and your ear" - now who can't do that ?



JasonM -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 14 2021 16:00:24)

quote:

he personally advised me to remove the thumb from 6th string. He said - you dont need the thumb for anything (here mostly mean arpeggios and picados)


That’s interesting. Grisha always seems to be an example of defying the norm lol! I’m not sure there are any masters that don’t anchor? Regardless, if it works for you, it works. Personally I found that I can only play so fast or consistent before I need to then anchor the thumb to advance



zendalex -> RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge? (Jun. 14 2021 16:20:43)

quote:

I’m not sure there are any masters that don’t anchor


Nino de Pura comes to mind first. Even if he anchors it is very untraditional anchoring (not on 6th or even 5th string).

In the same time I am thinking, when you go down from first to lower strings, you remove anchor anyway. Yes you might say - Paco always touched the deck, but from what I see he did not have to. Touching the deck only removes one degree of freedom, it is not same as anchoring on the string.

I think that balance is the most important thing when you play and you can feel it better with no anchoring as you are free to move the hand and choose position where it feels most stable. Maybe its just me. Geometry of hands must be playing role here. And yes you can see Grisha himself anchors most of the time. We talked with him about this apparent paradox, but he explained that he could do it either way.

Funny thing is that I do remember Ruben Diaz, the most vocal troll of Grisha made a whole video basically describing that you should not anchor when you practice. He even says he talked to Paco and Paco said the same thing to him personally (knowing how Ruben is that is likely a lie). Like when you practice - dont anchor, but when you actually play the concert - you do. Not sure if it is of any value but I sure feel playing both ways and feeling stable gives you better understanding of the instrument.



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