Arabic/Morisco/Andalusi influence on the cante.... (Full Version)

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Beni2 -> Arabic/Morisco/Andalusi influence on the cante.... (Apr. 29 2021 1:24:12)

https://youtu.be/eQD-rhV3rAw

Just came across this..."can Christians sing adhan?"
TRICK QUESTION



Ricardo -> RE: Arabic/Morisco/Andalusi influence on the cante.... (Apr. 29 2021 14:35:01)

Posted this before. Check from 1:08 on.


And 1:07 here:



Beni2 -> RE: Arabic/Morisco/Andalusi influence on the cante.... (Apr. 29 2021 21:21:08)

Are you being serious? That is SOUTH Indian. Considering the castes/clans that coalesced in Anatolia and emerged as an ethnic group with their own language left NORTH India over a thousand years ago, you must be joking.

The proof is in the pudding. You want proof? This is one very small piece of the puzzle. When Kitarist notes that one must take social and cultural (he says political and circumstancial) context into account, he is noting that it is better to work from social and cultural phenomena nearer in time and geography and expand out if there are questions that don't seem to be answered by immediate social, cultural, and temporal context. The proximity of Muslim North Africa and the covert presence of Muslim Andaluces offer much more likely sources for SOME of the important elements of famenco. Although I prefer Steingress's etymological analysis, I would not completely write off the "felah-mengu" hypothesis.

I saw someone post a "gitanos de India" theme on facebook. Multiple problems with that. First, "gitano" or, properly, "Rom, Roma, Romani," is an ethnicity that emerges with its own language (culture) in Anatolia. Second, they were singing Qawwali, which is heavily influenced by the Muslim occupation of what is now Pakistan and North India. Any simijlarity probably has more to do with the diffusion and dominance of "Arabic" culture.

At any rate, Steingress offers the best exegesis of flamenco, including discussions of the etymology of "flamenco" and the problems (SOME) early "flamencologists" contributed to or argued against.

@Ricardo: the tone of this post was not meant to be inflammatory or insulting.



Piwin -> RE: Arabic/Morisco/Andalusi influence on the cante.... (Apr. 30 2021 16:26:54)

Wouldn't it become a touchy issue if it turns out that flamencos are singing adhan? It's not a religion I know all that much about, but my Muslim friends in Morocco have been very insistent on the fact that adhan is recited, not sung. I'm not all that clear on what the distinction is, but they seem to make it.



Ricardo -> RE: Arabic/Morisco/Andalusi influence on the cante.... (Apr. 30 2021 20:03:24)

quote:

Second, they were singing Qawwali, which is heavily influenced by the Muslim occupation of what is now Pakistan and North India.


Right, my point was that a brief fragment of a scale does not equate origins of the song and importantly the song FORM. I was gonna find pop songs that use the same scaler fragment of E up to A, but got into other persuits. Of course Pele is not doing Carnatic singing, the point was the similar mode or scale is all over the map. Regarding Qwwali it was a beautiful moment in the interview with Chicuelo poveda duquende and fez Ali fez when, after being forced into a fusion situation by some promoters, fez is like what’s wrong with these singers singing profane vs spiritual lyrics and keeping their sound in their throats? Chicuelo yells at fez at one point for not keeping eye contact during song changes and soon after laments about the basic fact that the fusion doesn’t actually work AT ALL because the qwwali music, much to his surprise with harmoniums there, DOESNT USE FREAKING CHORDS! [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

Also, it might seem minor to folks but the Arab audio was manipulated to have a closer match in terms of pitches and key. Slow down to hear it.




BarkellWH -> RE: Arabic/Morisco/Andalusi influence on the cante.... (Apr. 30 2021 20:05:47)

quote:

Wouldn't it become a touchy issue if it turns out that flamencos are singing adhan? It's not a religion I know all that much about, but my Muslim friends in Morocco have been very insistent on the fact that adhan is recited, not sung. I'm not all that clear on what the distinction is, but they seem to make it.


Having been involved with Islam for 55 years in one way or another, from an early US Air Force assignment to Peshawar, Pakistan, to university studies, to assignments as a US Foreign Service officer to American Embassies in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia and Jakarta, Indonesia, I can assure you that the Adhan (or the Azan as it is known in Malaysia and Indonesia), the Muslim call to prayer, is recited. It is not sung.

If a flamenco were to sing the Azan accompanied by the guitar it would be considered blasphemy. Given the response of many Muslims to what they perceive as blasphemy (Charlie Hebdo and other examples) any flamenco foolish enough to do so would certainly put his life in danger.

I have always found the evening Azan, called the Maghreb ("Maghreb" means "West" in Arabic), to be relaxing and peaceful to listen to. Recited at sunset, it has always seemed hauntingly beautiful to my mind. On the other hand, if you are located near a Mosque and the early morning Azan is recited at 4:30am, waking you up, it is less so.

Bill



BarkellWH -> RE: Arabic/Morisco/Andalusi influence on the cante.... (Apr. 30 2021 21:49:14)

quote:

Just came across this..."can Christians sing adhan?" TRICK QUESTION


My advice to any Christian or non-Muslim who wishes to recite the Adhan is to do so alone in the shower.

On the other hand, if he wishes to recite the Adhan in public in, say, Pakistan or Indonesia, I strongly advise him to have first drawn up a will naming his beneficiary.

Bill



Piwin -> RE: Arabic/Morisco/Andalusi influence on the cante.... (May 1 2021 5:46:45)

That's what I thought. So, if it turns out, like Beni2's video suggests, that adhan had an influence on cante, I wonder how that would go down. The "lyrics" aren't the same of course, and it seems to be just short lines, but establishing that connection could be seen as implying that adhan is in fact sung, so I'd imagine it could potentially stir up some controversy.

In the little time I spent in Muslim-majority countries, I also found the adhan quite relaxing to listen to. It's also nice to just have that kind of marker of time throughout the day. Where I grew up, it was church bells. They did double duty, as they were used both for religious purposes, but also just to mark the top of every hour. And they didn't stop in the night either. Not that it ever interrupted my sleep. They only did as many strokes as whatever hour it was, and 2 bell strokes at 2 in the morning just isn't enough to wake me up. [8D]



Ricardo -> RE: Arabic/Morisco/Andalusi influence on the cante.... (May 1 2021 18:40:03)

quote:

The "lyrics" aren't the same of course, and it seems to be just short lines, but establishing that connection could be seen as implying that adhan is in fact sung, so I'd imagine it could potentially stir up some controversy.


It’s not controversial at all. There is a clear lineage from before Ancient Greece-> Middle East->Asia , 8 syllables (alla akbar 2x) up a scale from 1 to 4, yes the version I linked is “sung” but that is not the same melody always used. Some I heard are more “recited” as a single tone, but moving around a scale I consider singing. Regardless the aesthetic connection is obvious. But it is simply superficial. The idea eventually gets filtered through western music long before flamenco was born. Singling out the call to prayer was probably first thought of because the non Christians in Spain were told to convert or leave, so it is often believed the aesthetics of the Arab/Jewish/gypsy/Indian songs were preserved and the lyrics adapted either with Christian lyrics or secular lyrics in order to avoid persecution or even more marginalization. The example shown is cherry picked to highlight these aesthetics. Unfortunately it leaves the false impression that flamenco=Arabic singing. One could just as easily cherry pick Ancient Greece=flamenco instead, or Gregorian chant, which I haven’t seen but believe I have read somewhere. Point is that it is misleading IMO.



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