"Hand Made In Spain"?? (Full Version)

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Gecko -> "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Mar. 14 2006 10:47:40)

What does the phrase "Hand Made In Spain" really mean? For example, I have a Lucida LG 797, which is a great guitar in its price range ($800-1000 U.S., new), that I will probably be selling this Spring. The Lucida web site (see link below) says that this series is "Hand Made In Spain," yet to me I cannot envision a guitar in this price range being truly hand made, like say Anders makes his.

When I get ready to sell this guitar would it be fair to advertise it as hand made?

Lucida



davor -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Mar. 14 2006 12:45:17)

You could find a lot's of answers searching by Google, but this is what I think will help you for start.

http://www.esomogyi.com/handmade.html

pozdrav



PacoPaella -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Mar. 14 2006 14:17:37)

I've just sold a hand made guitar for 1000 euros. I bought it from the Ferrer shop in Granada from the Hands of Antonio Ferrer, formerly known as Antonio Duran; and i am 100% sure its handmade. However its not an instrument the master made but rather one of his students works. So while its still a nice instrument, they do not charge the same prize. I have seen instruments for 700 that were hand made, too. Just a matter of whose hands it were.



Guest -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Mar. 14 2006 15:45:17)

The expression "hand made" has totally lost it´s value. I dont know lucida guitars, but big brands like Alhambra and Yamaha are also "hand made"

You have a lots of hands involved in this process, so maybe they should more expensive than guitars like mine, where you only have 2 hands (both mine) involved in the process f the building.
In the factorys, you have some hands doing this, some hands doing that, hands putting wood into a machine and hands taking them out. Lots of hands for the price[;)]

Here you have my hands in work



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Miguel de Maria -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Mar. 14 2006 16:25:18)

Probably "luthier-made" is more appropriate nowadays.

Anyway, a lot of luthiers use a lot of power tools, too, which would disqualify them from being hand-made in some senses of the word. But in my opinion, as long as you have a master luthier there to tap the wood and use his judgement to get the best sound out of each soundboard, that's what we all want. I think it was Torres who said something to the effect of there not being any secrets, just the accumulated knowledge and judgement he had acquired over a lifetime of patient, observant, and thoughtful work. It makes senses to me (although I bet he did figure out a few "secrets" along the way).



Patrick -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Mar. 14 2006 16:59:14)

It's all about marketing. It's all BS. Here's one for you.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product?sku=512778

That's right. You can get a genuine hand made guitar from "Spain" for only $599.99! Give me a break. Like Ander's said, "Every guitar is built by hand" for god's sake. Now, how many hands are involved is a whole different matter.

If I worked at it long enough, I could get monkey's to build guitars! So could I still advertise them as hand made? After all monkeys do have hands and not paws (I think).

Oh, and don't forget, it must be hand made using wood from the last Royal Cypress tree from the Alhambra Forest, cut on a full moon at midnight in December on leap years only.



gshaviv -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Mar. 14 2006 18:16:06)

I agree with Patrick, its all marketing BS.

A guitar factory is a bunch of people each doing a single repetitive task (with their hands) out of which comes a guitar. A true hand made guitar by a luthier you have one person building the guitar from start to finish. Moreover that person gives attention to each piece of wood and customizes the process to fit the weod and to fit the requests of the customer.

I think the key point is in the article Davor posted. For a factory quality means consistency, they'll produce the exact same guitar time and again. For a luthier quality means playability and sound. A luthier aims to produce a tool for the musician.

Two stories:

My kid brought home a box of fruit flavored candies. Turns out they added some vitamin C to the candy and they wrote on the box "a good source of vitamin C". Now that's marketing BS in its full glory. Its just like calling a Lucida or a Cordoba $800 guitar hand made.

The second story is a joke, which I know I'll regret telling in this forum as it is not entirely approriate, but I just can't resist.

Question: You know why a blood donation is cheaper then a sperm donation?
Answer: The latter is hand made [;)]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Mar. 14 2006 20:18:44)

I don't think factories can produce the same guitar, which is really the problem. They use the same measurements and methods on a substance which varies by nature (wood). So the result would inherently be inconsistent. I guess the higher proportion of laminate or other stabilized materials would create a more consistent (although perhaps worse) product.



Ron.M -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Mar. 14 2006 22:01:56)

When I was in Spain once, I was invited to come and look at some stuff an old widow was throwing out after clearing out her attic.
Amazingly enough, I found a Flamenco guitar and what looked like an Old Master oil painting.
I paid 500 pesetas for them and took them to an expert dealer, who informed me that the signatures were definitely genuine!

El Greco and Marcel Barbero!!

But...sadly, Barbero was not a great oil painter, and El Greco made crap guitars...

Oh well...

cheers

Ron



Gecko -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Mar. 15 2006 11:15:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

But...sadly, Barbero was not a great oil painter, and El Greco made crap guitars...

Oh well...

cheers

Ron


Ah, but they were both probably "hand-made/painted." [:)]

Its sad that the term "Hand-Made" does not necessarily equate to quality any more, if it ever did.



Ron.M -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Apr. 13 2006 9:54:53)

These are all "Hand Made" and "Hand Finished" too!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6214588219892064945&q=guitar&pl=true

cheers

Ron


PS: (Thanks to "Glen" who posted it on the eBorneo forum)



koella -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Apr. 13 2006 11:18:01)

Man, and they're working fast ![8D]



TANúñez -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Apr. 13 2006 13:19:06)

quote:

These are all "Hand Made" and "Hand Finished" too!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6214588219892064945&q=guitar&pl=true

cheers

Ron


PS: (Thanks to "Glen" who posted it on the eBorneo forum)


Oh my God! That was truly amazing footage. Ron, do you realize what you've just posted? that is the first video footage ever of the real Conde Hermanos shop [:D] No one has ever been to the "inside" before.



Ron.M -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Apr. 13 2006 13:29:21)

LOL! Tom!

I just noticed that they assemble the sound box first as a complete unit before drilling the soundhole....I don't think luthiers do this, do they?

cheers

Ron



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Apr. 13 2006 22:50:36)

quote:

I just noticed that they assemble the sound box first as a complete unit before drilling the soundhole


Ron;

Just think – you can put the sound hole and neck wherever you want with that construction technique!

The painters remind me of guys in a body and fender shop. For $29.95 we will paint your car! [:D]

Did you mention that these guitars only play Chinese music?



TANúñez -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Apr. 14 2006 5:06:20)

quote:

LOL! Tom!

I just noticed that they assemble the sound box first as a complete unit before drilling the soundhole....I don't think luthiers do this, do they?

cheers

Ron


You know, I didn't even notice that. I'll have to watch it again. What I did notice was for a moment, all the guitars appeared to be flamencos due to the light colored wood. Then I noticed the guy spraying the finish was spraying the back and sides to look like the color of rosewood, padauk or whatever it was supposed to be. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the factory that makes those amaziing "world class" Esteban guitars. You know the ones, about $99 and comes with a gig bag and instructional DVD?



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Apr. 14 2006 14:58:38)

quote:

I wouldn't be surprised if this is the factory that makes those amaziing "world class" Esteban guitars. You know the ones, about $99 and comes with a gig bag and instructional DVD?


Tom;

The black Cordoba hat is $1000 extra! [:D]

I have my grandfathers Cordoba hat which is about 80 years old. One day I am going to take it out of its box, wear it, and have a picture taken of me with my guitar.

Come to think of it, I was also a student of Andres Segovia, as Estaban claims. I should start my own guitar line and sell on the home-shopping channel! I would sell my guitar kit for $98 - you have to undercut the competition to be a success! [:D]



eslastra -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Apr. 15 2006 23:57:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Zurdo

quote:

LOL! Tom!

I just noticed that they assemble the sound box first as a complete unit before drilling the soundhole....I don't think luthiers do this, do they?

cheers

Ron


You know, I didn't even notice that. I'll have to watch it again. What I did notice was for a moment, all the guitars appeared to be flamencos due to the light colored wood. Then I noticed the guy spraying the finish was spraying the back and sides to look like the color of rosewood, padauk or whatever it was supposed to be. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the factory that makes those amaziing "world class" Esteban guitars. You know the ones, about $99 and comes with a gig bag and instructional DVD?


Speaking of Esteban guitars, have you ever checked out these 'raving' reviews? Some are quite hilarious[:D]

http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Data4/Esteban/



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Apr. 16 2006 15:10:21)

quote:

Speaking of Esteban guitars, have you ever checked out these 'raving' reviews? Some are quite hilarious


Eddie;

Hello stranger - good to hear from you. Happy Easter. Hope we can get together for a visit soon.



Ramón -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Apr. 18 2006 1:04:20)

Man.... Needed to REALLY laugh, so I read those guitar reviews....LMAO

One HAS to read the reviews of his music on Amazon. One guy wrote:

"I would re-name this album, Flamenco Elevator Music by Estaban Schwartz and The Boys. Nice romantic background for candlelight dinner at Grossingers in the Catskills..."

Another:

"I got this CD for my wife as it turns her on and makes her dream of swerthy men..."

'Swerthy' men???

Ayyyy Chihuahua!!



Miguel de Maria -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Apr. 19 2006 17:04:26)

I perform probably 90% of my gigs in Scottsdale, Esteban's base before he became famous. I gig with some guys who took his gig at the Hyatt, where he had played for 12 years.

I often get people asking me if I am in some way related to Esteban, or that I sound like him. Although I don't care for his music, I take that as a compliment. Most of them think he is very good. One rich lady told me that her husband flew her in from across the country in a private jet to see one of his concerts in the mountains, presumably a semi-private affair for other rich people. She said it was the best concert she had ever seen!



Ricardo -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Apr. 19 2006 18:31:21)

That is funny stuff. But honestly, I don't care if a guitar is made by a single old spanish master or assembled bits by hundreds of canibles in a sweat shop in Indonesia...if it sounds "flamenco" I will use it. The simple fact is not EVERY guitar is bad that comes out of a factory, and not EVERY guitar is good that comes from a maker with an 8 year wait list. True a lot of great instruments are owned by non players, but guitars that get played a lot, tend to sound better in my experience.

So if you can't afford a real "hand made guitar" don't cry about it. And if you own the most expensive rare guitar in the world, don't sit there thinking everyone beneath you has "toys". Just play the things and enjoy em.

Ricardo



Ron.M -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Apr. 19 2006 20:01:57)

quote:

One rich lady told me that her husband flew her in from across the country in a private jet to see one of his concerts in the mountains, presumably a semi-private affair for other rich people. She said it was the best concert she had ever seen!


Even Daniel Barenboim had to admit, that at the end of the day...music is about entertaining audiences.
You will not survive as a musician unless you can.
It's really great if you can have your peer group respect what you do and speak about you in high esteem.
But in reality...that "knowledgeable" peer group probably represent less than 0.1% of your potential audience IMO.
Presenting a good show is what it's all about.
That's how you get the money to pursue your hobby, without having to work in a car factory or a call centre from 8 till 5 and practise guitar in the evenings.
Entertainers know that..and that's why folk like Juan Martin and Esteban couldn't give a toss about what the "in crowd" think, or what hype about them is published in magazines.
Their agent is too busy putting a Summer schedule together for cruise ships and worldwide gigs and they are busy practising their new repertoire and planning a new holiday home in Belize.
Hobby playing and professional playing are two different things IMO.

cheers

Ron



Guest -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Apr. 20 2006 7:45:43)

quote:

The simple fact is not EVERY guitar is bad that comes out of a factory, and not EVERY guitar is good that comes from a maker with an 8 year wait list.


It´s so true Ricardo. BUT, the thing is that you dont get the point... Many of my clients and other handbuilders clients are interested in a personal product, something that has been made for them or which has been made by someone keeping an old tradition alive, a tradition which has made the evolution of the guitar possible and something which is an absolutely non mass produced product.

Another thing: remember that no guitar factory has ever contributed to the evolution of the guitar. An evolution that makes it possible to buy a good factory guitar because it´s basically a copy of what some handbuilders have been doing and still do. Nothing else. Just copy...............

I never compare my guitars to factory made guitars. Not because I think they are better or worse, but simply because I think it is two very different products.



davor -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Apr. 20 2006 12:32:45)

quote:

clients are interested in a personal product, something that has been made for them or which has been made by someone keeping an old tradition alive, a tradition which has made the evolution of the guitar possible and something which is an absolutely non mass produced product


That was my wish when I decided to buy la guitarra flamenca.Work of art.

quote:

Just play the things and enjoy em.


That is their purpose and everything else like colecting or smth. like that isn't fair.

pozdrav



Ziyad H. -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Nov. 17 2019 6:48:35)

I know I'm way too late but that's the most reasonable answer I've seen so far regarding this subject. Nicely put👌



Tom Blackshear -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Nov. 20 2019 19:11:22)

quote:

Its just like calling a Lucida or a Cordoba $800 guitar hand made.


Esteve Guitars in Valencia are well made for the money and hand made of solid wood the last I heard.

And if you walk into Manuel Adalid's shop and tell him Tom Blackshear wanted me to say hello, he might try to help you find a nice guitar.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: "Hand Made In Spain"?? (Nov. 20 2019 20:43:29)

quote:


Another thing: remember that no guitar factory has ever contributed to the evolution of the guitar. An evolution that makes it possible to buy a good factory guitar because it´s basically a copy of what some hand builders have been doing and still do. Nothing else. Just copy


Take into consideration that some smaller builders build replicas after master builders.

It's done all the time in the violin family.

Even guitars are copied by peers in the same family of higher art.

I know that many guitar makers think they are different from other builds but the world's creative drive seems to be an art with so many similarities that it is difficult to say guitar patterns are that different. It would be better to say that only a builders personal stamp separates them. It's the voice that compels us.



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