The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Full Version)

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devilhand -> The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Mar. 30 2021 21:58:57)

I wonder if guitar is invented/made for accompanying a singer.



Escribano -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Mar. 30 2021 22:19:08)

quote:

I wonder if guitar is invented/made for accompanying a singer.


And your point is?

Perhaps you might post some of your guitar accompanying your singing here?



Escribano -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Mar. 30 2021 22:21:49)

quote:

Of course playing a solo on e-guitar in a band is a different story


Not completely. The band also plays along. With a few bands, the singer and guitar work together or do a call and reply. Quite common in the blues, for example.



Ricardo -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Mar. 30 2021 22:24:53)

All music and instruments are an extension of the human voice. Thanks to god music is not only and ever in its service alone, such that any instrument, no matter how superficially limited, can be used to fully express an individual’s feelings and tastes once they have mastered certain aspects of its manual technique.



ernandez R -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Mar. 30 2021 22:55:28)

If we take this back a step, a really really big step, the first instrument was most likely the clapping of hands. I'll go out on my blue collar working mans limited education limb and say clapping, and stick beating, and rock knocking with all its associated rhymec nature most likely predates human speech as we know it. And yes HR is poking DH with a rhythm stick a little over his previous palmas comment but in good fun.

Truth is we can hardly tell, or rather agree, with certainty what Flamenco was pre wax cylinders.

Ha, reread the comments and noticed Ricardo says the voice has primacy and all instruments are emulating the passion of the voice. I don't doubt that but I could not say why I feel there is something else, some quality that makes me lean away from his idea and back to mine where I see an early human pre speech expressing himself rubbing a stick across the teeth of the jaw bone of an ass....

HR



Auda -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Mar. 30 2021 23:13:40)

quote:

When I watch someone playing guitar on youtube without singing I always feel sorry for them.


My heart breaks too when I watch PDL, Sabicas et al play solo but probably for different reasons.

Cheers



aaron peacock -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Mar. 30 2021 23:40:23)

quote:

With a few bands, the singer and guitar work together or do a call and reply. Quite common in the blues, for example.


call and response, dialogue (vs monologue), breaking up a melodic line into 2 or more parts and orchestrating them on different instruments, playing "between" other peoples note when you join in, "from the one comes the 2 comes the many... "

I hear call and response in so much good music, even just as an orchestration pattern

Ernandez says
quote:


I see an early human pre speech expressing himself rubbing a stick across the teeth of the jaw bone of an ass...


Sorry mate, I was trying to stay hidden actually, that's why I was in the bushes...not the most socially condoned activity, I'll admit...


I love it when players can play well and sing well at the same time, that's tricky.
That golden age of "angelic voiced" singers (up til about the 60's) before voz ronca became the rock-n-roll de rigeur
there's some voice doing some gyrations that are not acquired tastes, but would blow your grandmas mind, whomever she was



RobF -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Mar. 31 2021 0:28:44)

I think that’s a very good quote.

One unfortunate aspect of learning flamenco guitar for many international players is the lack of available cantaors to work with or share development. It almost forces the non-Spanish player to prematurely move towards being a soloist. I think also culturally, North American guitarists are more accustomed to the rock, blues, jazz aesthetic of guitar improvisation which celebrates ‘solo’ guitar or, at least, guitar ‘solos’. So, the natural tendency might be to assume the same convention also applies to flamenco guitar.

I think the first music probably grew out of voice combined with rocks, handclaps, etc concurrently. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot was learned through the imitation of animals and birds, probably for reasons of the hunt, followed by being hauled out during the requisite after dinner bragging and story telling.



Ricardo -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Mar. 31 2021 15:16:35)

quote:

It almost forces the non-Spanish player to prematurely move towards being a soloist.


The guitar solo concept comes from Segovia who “rescued” the guitar from the noisy flamenco players. Being Andalusian he claimed to be a big aficionado of the cante. Ramon Montoya was a bit older than Segovia and already the more celebrated Andalusian guitarist professional having made dozens of recordings already before Segovia began his career. After Segovia’s success in Paris and subsequent recordings, Montoya’s friends pushed him to record his solo guitar stuff, also in Paris. Of course Montoya probably thought it was strange thing to do, but again, we can thank Segovia for the guitar solo concept in the modern era. Before him there was Sor, Aguado, Gaspar Sanz, Arcas, Tarrega etc. Conversely the “anti solo flamenco” sentiment also stems from Segovia’s deliberate division of the spanish guitar’s role.



JasonM -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Mar. 31 2021 16:04:47)

quote:

I don't understand why they play only guitar.


We had a discussion about these younger fingerstyle guitarist who do note for note renditions of popular songs and slap the rhythm on their guitars. I would agree in this case, it gets old quick and sounds anemic. But I’m more annoyed that people think it’s amazing and ask me if I’ve heard of this Marcin kid [8|]

Anyhow, to each their own. Besides, Paco is saying it in the context of development as a solo player, not as solo guitar is inferior.



devilhand -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Mar. 31 2021 17:33:05)

quote:

reread the comments and noticed Ricardo says the voice has primacy and all instruments are emulating the passion of the voice.

I just read about the saxophone being the closest to the human voice. I think it's a very good idea to emulating cantaor's voice using saxophone.



quote:

One unfortunate aspect of learning flamenco guitar for many international players is the lack of available cantaors to work with or share development. It almost forces the non-Spanish player to prematurely move towards being a soloist.

We are all in the same boat. Going for flamenco solo for that reason is to me a bad excuse. We have to find a good solution for our problem. A good example is the video above.



BarkellWH -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Mar. 31 2021 18:46:17)

quote:

I just read about the saxophone being the closest to the human voice. I think it's a very good idea to emulating cantaor's voice using saxophone.


I have a double CD album entitled: "Ramon Montoya: El Genio De La Guitarra Flamenca, Grabaciones Historicas 1923 - 1936." There are several pieces with Montoya accompanied by a gentleman named F. Vilchea playing a saxophone.

I have always found this interesting. Although I was not a fan of Paco de Lucia incorporating instruments like bass guitar and harmonica into his group, Montoya did it with a saxophone early on.

Bill



RobF -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Mar. 31 2021 19:18:38)

quote:

I just read about the saxophone being the closest to the human voice. I think it's a very good idea to emulating cantaor's voice using saxophone.

I think, for the player, the violin and viola are closest, due to their proximity to the larynx while playing. The visceral feedback* creates a loop which is going to lead the player towards some level of vocalization in their execution, even if subconsciously. Perhaps, for the listener, the reed instruments may approach it due to their tonality and having their sound produced by breath. Guys like Coltrane sure pushed the concept, no doubt about that.

But I think you may be misunderstanding my point. Flamenco saxophonists are likely as rare as hen’s teeth, so I’m not sure how easy it would be to find a saxophonist outside of Spain with the requisite background to be able to perform the task. Especially one who would be willing to work with a student level guitarist.

There are more violinists available, it seems to be a trend, but the nature of the instrument tends to lead them towards playing falsettas in lieu of the guitar, rather than mimicking the vocalizations of cante. In other words, they are performing the response, rather than the call. At least, that’s what I’ve seen in my (limited) experiences, it might be different elsewhere. I’m not going to claim to be the last word on this, that’s for sure.

* I’m not sure if that’s the right term for what I’m trying to say, which is that the instrument’s vibrations are felt in the throat which leads the player to experience a sense of vocalization, however unconscious.



chester -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Mar. 31 2021 20:25:14)

quote:

The guitar solo concept comes from Segovia

So you're saying the entire shrapnel lineup owe their existence to segovia??

[:D][:D][:D]



Mark2 -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Mar. 31 2021 22:39:14)

Saxes, violins, etc are no substitute for a singer IMO. As has been pointed out many times, cante accompaniment can be fairly simple, as in cases where letras are set to dance routines. That is not much different than learning the chords to a pop tune, with the added responsibility of playing for the dancer. It can also be very difficult, as in the cases where singers are not tied to baile, and have the freedom to complicate things.

I imagine a sax player could study cante to the point where he/she could take the liberties that a singer in the second scenario would, but that is a tall order. I just don't see why a sax player would involve themselves in that kind of study, unless they were obsessed with cante.

Playing along to a sax playing a solea melody isn't likely to get a guitarist to where he'd want to be IMO. I suppose it's a start though.

For the record, as a guitarist I'm fairly comfortable in the first scenario, but not the second. Not many singers around here who sing pa'alante....and the ones who do come through, want a guy who's already in the category 2 level. Can't blame them.



aaron peacock -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Apr. 1 2021 4:22:39)

Well, a guitarist can begin training to sing also...



I won't make any promises about how *authentic* ones first efforts will be, and one cannot expect Antonio Molina to emerge on day 1, but it surely will help in developing timing sensibilities...

Manuel Fernández Molina (Parilla de Jerez) could dance like a king.
I'm trying to remember which historical players could also sing reasonably well.
In lieu of that, here's Camarón playing guitar


Here's an example of what can happen if call-and-response goes haywire



Ricardo -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Apr. 1 2021 18:46:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

quote:

The guitar solo concept comes from Segovia

So you're saying the entire shrapnel lineup owe their existence to segovia??

[:D][:D][:D]


I Don’t even get what you are laughing at. Absolutely...in fact that whole shredder mentality is more directly coming from the Flamenco idea of dark melody and hard rhythm. It is not a direct line of course, lots of filtering through jazz fusion shred.



chester -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Apr. 1 2021 23:19:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

quote:

The guitar solo concept comes from Segovia

So you're saying the entire shrapnel lineup owe their existence to segovia??

[:D][:D][:D]


I Don’t even get what you are laughing at. Absolutely...in fact that whole shredder mentality is more directly coming from the Flamenco idea of dark melody and hard rhythm. It is not a direct line of course, lots of filtering through jazz fusion shred.


Not sure if this is your idea of an april fool's joke, but I don't think flamenco invented displays of technical virtuosity.



Ricardo -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Apr. 2 2021 17:35:44)

quote:

Not sure if this is your idea of an april fool's joke, but I don't think flamenco invented displays of technical virtuosity.


Of course not, that derives from even older music styles...however it is a requirement for the fundamental execution of cante accompaniment (and solo playing of course) and in terms of guitar playing, it is the more recent creation that has influenced the guitar genres in general. While basic rock derives from blues vocabulary, this “shred” thing derives from the darker modalities, harmonic minor runs, and driving rhythm and chords that are required for flamenco in general. To me the influence (even if indirect via people like Dimeola or Mclaughlin) on rock/metal “shred” is obvious. I am not alone in seeing this connection, just look at Ben Woods.

To me, nothing more “metal flamenco” than Randy Roads with his Jeronimo Peña Fernandez (Jaen) guitar...sure it is “classical” but man what an Andaluz flamenco make those instruments are (so lucky to own one just like his). Manolo Franco and Isidro and Manolo Sanlucar have used these guitars often as well, they just stick the tap plate on. Ole, crazy train!!![:D]



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Ricardo -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Apr. 2 2021 17:43:50)

quote:

Well, a guitarist can begin training to sing also...


He says it is free style “solea por bulerias”, but sings Serneta 1 orthodox and then Frijones 2, both examples of Solea proper.

I believe Paquirri el Guanter was a guitarist (cadiz, Solea creator of both cadiz and triana styles). Juan Breve of course. My favorite guitarist turned singer at present was Pena Hijo from malaga. Terremoto jr was a pro guitarist for many years before changing to cantaor career. Cepero mainly sang rumbas in public but the reason he is the BEST accompanist I think is because he can probably sing EVERYTHING. Chicuelo sings well, I can tell he coached his buddy Poveda on certain styles (although it could be the opposite, but I doubt it). We guitarists tend to get stuck in chest voice range and don’t develop a technique for singing high notes...it is a general problem for all styles of music I think. I only learned how to get out of chest voice two years ago.



aaron peacock -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Apr. 8 2021 10:00:15)

quote:

We guitarists tend to get stuck in chest voice range and don’t develop a technique for singing high notes...it is a general problem for all styles of music I think. I only learned how to get out of chest voice two years ago.


this is worthy of a thread of its own (fundamentals of singing, let alone specific flamenco idiomatic techniques). Singing well is hard!
It's all fun and games to make cartoon of Agujetas mannerisms (as a child we laughed and thought it funny to try to imitate him), but it's an intense physical activity
Again, the goal is not to become a singer, but to understand better accompaniment, but who knows, maybe one discovers hidden talent. The voice itself has a character, apart from training, that may have some instant charismatic appeal... or not.
I'm generally advocating natural approaches to almost any kind of learning.
Osmosis. If a person who exclusively listened to solo guitar shredding suddenly starts checking out more "holistic" music (? struggling for words, do you know what I mean?) they will probably pick-up on it's vibe.

Blues is a good example. I'm so very tired of the exclusivity of Rock-based Blues.
Old time Blues has so much more to offer than the singular thread of Blues that the admittedly great Howlin' Wolf delivered to the Rock world... I know that it's not polite to speak badly about the dead, but I'll take SRV's spirited singing over his repetitive encaged soloing, which note-choice-wise never explored the many expressive possibilities even as he bent and wailed and poured his soul into his actual playing...Hendrix' solos leave me bored stiff, but his little mumblings and quiet low-gain semi-clean tone playing intermixed with vocal mumblings are just hypnotic and TRIPPY, for lack of a better word. It's expressive. THAT is his virtuosity, IMO...
Miles Davis and Chick Corea on the Jack Johnson sessions: "Konda" this lovely lovely piece of music that just spontaneously emerges from Chick noodling around and Miles and the band joining in on top. It was an accident, not a song, but it ends up being the strongest song they ever did, IMO, as it's missing all that intellectual foofy pretension and goes straight for the heart with an emotional and emotionally interesting chordal movement.



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bahen -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Apr. 12 2021 21:38:15)

Olé!



Mark2 -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Jun. 4 2022 18:05:23)

Found this post cause I searched for Marcin to see if he has been mentioned on the foro. Generally I have no interest in the steel string slapping thing but this kid seems to be doing some things that are completely original. I’ve watched several of his clips and I can’t decide if he’s a genius or a bit of a clown. Or both. The kid has skills



quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

quote:

I don't understand why they play only guitar.


We had a discussion about these younger fingerstyle guitarist who do note for note renditions of popular songs and slap the rhythm on their guitars. I would agree in this case, it gets old quick and sounds anemic. But I’m more annoyed that people think it’s amazing and ask me if I’ve heard of this Marcin kid [8|]

Anyhow, to each their own. Besides, Paco is saying it in the context of development as a solo player, not as solo guitar is inferior.



Arash -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Jun. 4 2022 22:26:15)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

I wonder if guitar is invented/made for accompanying a singer.


the coolest is if you can do both [:D]




silddx -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Jun. 5 2022 13:44:15)

I find this impressive but entirely unmoving. I find Michael Hedges very moving.



devilhand -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Jun. 5 2022 16:50:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

Found this post cause I searched for Marcin to see if he has been mentioned on the foro. Generally I have no interest in the steel string slapping thing but this kid seems to be doing some things that are completely original. I’ve watched several of his clips and I can’t decide if he’s a genius or a bit of a clown. Or both. The kid has skills




Too much noise. One can barely hear the melody. So the essence of this classical piece is lost.
My concept of playing solo fingerstyle guitar has been exactly what Tommy Emmanuel means at 6:08-6:45. Glad he mentioned it.
The same applies to solo flamenco guitar. Those melodic phrases of any palo must be there. Played note for note. If the melody is still obscure and not clear, she/he doesn't understand the main concept.




Richard Jernigan -> RE: The truth about playing (flamenco) guitar (Jun. 5 2022 23:26:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

It almost forces the non-Spanish player to prematurely move towards being a soloist.


The guitar solo concept comes from Segovia who “rescued” the guitar from the noisy flamenco players. Being Andalusian he claimed to be a big aficionado of the cante. Ramon Montoya was a bit older than Segovia and already the more celebrated Andalusian guitarist professional having made dozens of recordings already before Segovia began his career. After Segovia’s success in Paris and subsequent recordings, Montoya’s friends pushed him to record his solo guitar stuff, also in Paris. Of course Montoya probably thought it was strange thing to do, but again, we can thank Segovia for the guitar solo concept in the modern era. Before him there was Sor, Aguado, Gaspar Sanz, Arcas, Tarrega etc. Conversely the “anti solo flamenco” sentiment also stems from Segovia’s deliberate division of the spanish guitar’s role.


How about Miguel Llobet? …oh wait, I guess he’s in the etceteras.

RNJ



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