pre-flamenco influences? (Full Version)

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aaron peacock -> pre-flamenco influences? (Feb. 11 2021 12:53:56)

I'm curious...

here's an early use of the so-called "andalucian cadence" from Monteverdi

here's a Jácara, what some folks consider AN ancestor of our beloved musical forms:

Ricardo -> RE: pre-flamenco influences? (Feb. 11 2021 14:18:38)


here's a Jácara, what some folks consider AN ancestor of our beloved musical forms:

yep, it shares a striking resemblance, however, it is minor key ie normal baroque functions tonal harmony. At what point and why was there DELIBERATE avoidance of those types of functions that dominates the related flamenco forms? Or rather, the avoidance of the Half cadence specifically in order to establish Phrygian tonic in stark contrast to the above minor tonic? Also there a some distinct rhythmic phrasing patterns missing in the above form (namely, the 11-4 beat set up and 5-9 beat resolution), so what serves as the model for THAT? That 3000 page dissertation I skimmed through concludes it just “Happened” gradually. [&:]

aaron peacock -> RE: pre-flamenco influences? (Mar. 8 2021 23:50:59)

Yeah, I literally ripped these 2 references from the English speaking Wikipedia explanation of the roots, coupled with our Flamencopolis references (Faustino Nuñes)
I agree. Missing link.
I don't hear any duende-kraft here, however, just somber piety.
I hear functional music taking double-hops around the circle of 5ths backwards. (Interesting thing about the "andalusian cadence" (sic) when elaborated with secondary dominants makes the circle of 4ths, howevever, so the structure seems rather seminal.)

hmmm maybe it's that peasant music wasn't recorded, a bit like their diets. we hear plenty about what the king ate.
hmmm modal music after all? as in, a modal interpretation of this stuff?
It's like some Goebbels of Ostinato effect? (if you repeat a lie enough becomes the truth, allegedly) thus they modalize it?
I suspect that it's a blues suffering painful life experience kind of thing.
I have no idea.

Perhaps: There is a lost century of Golden Age flamenco that we didn't get to really hear recorded, as those folks kept the best stuff to themselves, and then they cranked out payo-friendly classical/romantic/pop renditions done in flamenco-style for their daily bread, while keeping their seguiriyas for the wake of a passed loved one... perhaps...Gitano secrets... i dunno.

Perhaps it's a conceptual model imagination thing:
The group decides to follow the more "exotic" thread as it thrills audiences.
Various audio-visual concepts of what "flamenco is" appears to have slightly shifted over the past century, and there's this tendency for group-selection of certain images that artists are able to evoke.
Zyriab the song by PDL, and the historical Person (brings Al-Oud or the Lute => guitar to Cordoba from Persia or Baghdad, he was Persian but an Oumayyid court musician) and it's historical and musical references are a complete picture and there will then be more scene-interest in mourisco aesthetics, as this has now been musically exemplified in the context of modern flamenco.

(*re your rhythmic references, check out Berber music(s) )

Possibly irrelevant but maybe related vis-a-vis the Moors (not as-in their occupational legacy, but as in "just across the narrow strip of water always"... there's a great coastal raiding legacy both ways also...boat crews, trade, etc),
if you hear modern Arab world pop music in which 12-tone equal-tempered instruments are played in conjunction with traditional instruments and traditional singing there is a kind of lowest-common-denominator harmony (a lot of Indian pop also features this) such that I propose primarily vocal-driven expressive wailing in which a kind of emotional doppler-effect is exploited and the guitar just has to try to use modal voicings to sort of approximately accompany...

but yeah. missing link. i can't find anything properly dirty until flamenco flamenco.
But then, where's the hop between Robert Johnson and Howling Wolf?

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