Holding the guitar (Full Version)

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Miguel de Maria -> Holding the guitar (Mar. 9 2006 20:49:18)

I'm looking for advice on finding a comfortable way to hold the guitar.

Sounds pretty basic, but I come back to this every couple of years for some reason. Recently, I've tried Paco style (2 yrs), classical (1 yr), and right leg on the footrest (6 months).

For some reason, I just can't get a comfortable position that lets me play a long time without fatigue. The classical came closest, but you can't really strum in it, and it looks dorky.

I used to drape the forearm, making contact near the elbow, with a leg crossed, but I got pains in my deltoid (front shoulder) area. Then I started resting the bicep on the guitar, which helped that, but I get a little tired in the lat area. This is frustrating!

Maybe I am expecting too much, but I am looking for a way to play without using any muscle to elevate or lift the arm. Trying to let it hang naturally from a shoulder with good posture, rest it lightly on the guitar and not use lots of shoulder or back muscles to hold it up.

I am starting to dread practicing because it makes me tired! Anyone have any ideas?



gerundino63 -> RE: Holding the guitar (Mar. 9 2006 21:05:51)

Hi Miguel!

I had long time back problems and searched a long time for the right position.
The best thing to do for me is to use all different positions.
If i am tired in the old school position, i use Paco, and if that is getting tired, i use the footstool etc.
It is very unnatural to sit in the same position for a long time.
Maybe a tip?

Peter



duende -> RE: Holding the guitar (Mar. 9 2006 21:09:18)

you seem to have an "anti guitar" body dude. I never heard of anybody getting so much pain from playing the guitar. No matter how you hold it it seems to be a problem

I play mainly paco style but i change between a footrest under the RIGHT foot and trad flamenco style as well. it works fairly well.

you have a nice wife right? force her to give ya a massage. or go and get a pro one.
it realy helps tired muscles



rick -> RE: Holding the guitar (Mar. 9 2006 21:44:31)

you know im not an expert, and we have talked about this (sortof) before. It does seem as if you have some problems in that area. I had shoulder pain a long time ago when I played and I have known several people who hung up guitar because of shoulder pain. I still maintain that if yo practice in front of a mirror you might be able to see whatever imbalance is causing the discomfort. because it seems to travel would indicate to me that is might be, not because of lack of strength, but rather you are holding to long in one posture. most classical/ flamenco dudes never try a strap, but you might, one of those a frames that actually suppor the thing might help, the only other idea is to go to the gym and work not only on strenght issues for that area, (one function of the gym - strenght) but work on the core, holistic issues in that shoulder, back etc. if there is a strenght imbalance in one muscle group it might be felt in the other muscle group that is called on to take over.(sounds very physican like) there is also a little bicycle type maching in my gym that you propel (dont know how else to put it) with your arms. like a upside down bicycle. I thought it was some kind of hokey stuff, until I had shoulder pain from benching and one of the power lifter guys turned me on to it. it was designed for baseball player, primarliy pitchers to warm up the shoulder, upper back etc for pitching. If you have acces to one of those, great if not try shoulder rotations with no weight prior to playing to loosen everything up. good luck and pardon my attempts at 1600 mile+ diagnosis



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Holding the guitar (Mar. 10 2006 0:15:21)

Well, I realize that I tend to keep a fixed and rigid positions for long periods of time. And I do a good amount of slow practice, one note per beat at 80 bpm kind of thing. And I probably tend to tense up when I do this. So probably I should stop doing that, huh?

Or maybe I could get one of these babies:

http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Guitars/Special/Wedge/Wedge-page.html

A wedge-shaped guitar to lessen the angle the arm needs to jut out. And made by William Cumpiano, every amateur luthier's hero!



rick -> RE: Holding the guitar (Mar. 10 2006 0:32:10)

you might find you spent money for nothing. until you can accurately determine the problem it is hard to develop a cure. It makes some sense to feel it is the jutting out of the arm, when I had a sore shoulder I figured the same. It might not be that however, and it might be the tenseness which would reoccur no matter how far out or close you held the guitar. Make some sense? Think if it like this maybe if you warm up your fingers to play intricate or fast passages, and Im sure all of us have that sense, do you warm up the other parts that are involved? Most of us dont. good luck again. The mirror idea is one a old flamenco told me and it works well not only for body placement blah blah but to see how your fingers are working the strings also. good luck again and I hope my little comments might lead to some relief.



Francisco -> RE: Holding the guitar (Mar. 10 2006 0:37:26)

Wow, just three replies, and it's pretty much covered everything I was going to say.

quote:

Gerundino63
The best thing to do for me is to use all different positions.

Yup, me too.

quote:

Duende
I play mainly paco style but i change between a footrest under the left foot and trad flamenco style as well. it works fairly well.

Same here.

quote:

rick
if there is a strenght imbalance in one muscle group it might be felt in the other muscle group that is called on to take over

Opposing muscle groups. Ex. Tricep v. Bicep. If one is overdeveloped, there may be a problem if the opposing muscle group does not provide adequate support. For example, people w/ big bellies (usually little abdominal muscle) usually end up with some sort of lower back pain due to the lack of support from opposing muscle group. This may not apply, but something to think about.

One more thing to think about is diet. This may not apply to you, Miguel, because I know you adhere to a fairly healthy diet. However, people consume things that get converted into toxins in the body. Aspartame for example, gets converted to methanol (which is horrible for your), then later converted to formaldehyde (this is bad too). It has also been linked to autoimmune diseases as well as fibromyalgia which has been known to result in nonspecific muscle pain usually related to fatigue. I don't know that you're ingesting aspartame, but there are things in our diet that produce symptoms, and we never consider them as potential causes. You probably already know all this, but something to also consider besides posture.

Anyway, the position that seems to work for me is the one Oscar Herrero uses. It is sort of between the classical and flamenco positions. Left foot up on foot rest, but the recessed part of the guitar that normally rests on the left knee (classical position) is actually resting between the knees. This position is good for my left wrist (recent injury to my left wrist), and still allows my right hand technique for flamenco.



Jon Boyes -> RE: Holding the guitar (Mar. 10 2006 12:50:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
For some reason, I just can't get a comfortable position that lets me play a long time without fatigue.


define 'long time'... If you mean these marathon 4 hour gigs, I'm not surprised! I think anyone would have problems playing one one position that long.

Might sound obvious, but have you tried changing position during your gigs? This is what I do for longer gigs.



seanm -> RE: Holding the guitar (Mar. 10 2006 13:27:12)

You can also try moving a bit while you play to help keep you loose and prevent you from 'locking' your muscles into one position. Another thing you can do is 'build' relaxation into your playing by rehearsing a relaxing movement or consciencously relaxing your body between musical phrases when you have a moment. Not only does this relax your playing but helps your phrasing.

For instance, wind players and singers have natural phrasing build into their performances because they have to work out where they are going to pause for breaths in the music. Non-wind players can sometimes go from phrase to phrase without any sort of natural pause because they don't think about it.

Apparently Pablo Casals, being asked how he plays with such intensity, said that he finds time to rest between the notes. This sounds corny or mystical but if you are practicing at 80 bpm you must make sure that you relax your hands etc between notes, chords, etc so that you are not teaching yourself to hold in all that tension. When you get up to speed that relaxation will be 'built in' (as opposed to building in tension ... because it's going to be one or the other).

Sean



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Holding the guitar (Mar. 10 2006 13:33:22)

Okay, guys thanks for the outpouring of suggestions.

I am going to do a little rehab-strengthening on my shoulder (I think maybe the precipitating cause was 2 years ago when I hurt my shoulder lifting weights).

I am going to do a full-body warmup before practice, jumping around and moving my arms and body (to bulerias maybe :).

I am also going to try to break my practices up into intense 15 min. sections with a small rest.

In my practices, I am going to try to move around with the music and strive to relax during any chance I can get.

Thanks, hopefully this will solve it!



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