Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Keys (Jan. 24 2021 20:54:23)
|
quote:
How do you think of por medio ? Does your terminlogy or way of thinking differ from that above ? How so ? Unfortunately we have had massive discussions on this topic, not all of which ended very nicely. There is nothing “wrong” with what you learned and are thinking, but I feel that it is convoluting multiple disciplines and theory approaches for the sake of communication of flamenco (which has it’s own discipline and language far removed from what you describe, and never needed it to function) to people that MIGHT have knowledge of OTHER disciplines and theory such as western classical tonal music, and Jazz (again both use very different approaches and terminology). I normally find conflicts in delivering my personal view of it all simply because the people arguing are also using conflated terms and approaches with their OWN personal understanding they already had. In other words, if you are well versed in Jazz, then I would approach flamenco with a modal concept where each chords or scale or melody is a single 13th chord and explain it as such. But if one is versed in doing harmonic analysis CORRECTLY of Bach chorales and such, using western tonal harmony, I could explain flamenco a different way. The problem I have found is the people I am talking to might not understand either of those that well, so it’s frustrating how to move forward. As and example, in one thread there was a very intelligent gentleman who insisted that the harmonic minor scale contains implications of the existence of the harmony VII natural dominant chord. For example the A harmonic minor ABCDEFG# somehow allows for the existence of a G7 chord. The very definition of the scale does not allow this, even though music that might use the harmonic minor scale might also use OTHER scales such as A natural minor, which in fact DOES use the G7...so we stand arguing about the definition and what it means “harmonic minor scale”. It is no coincidence your own description of “hi jazz”, and your attempts to justify the C natural chord in that context is hittting the exact same rocky road, for the exact same reasons. What I have tried to do, quite simply, is to point people toward the direction of “labeling” music, or music passages, as either “tonal” as in in a “key”, OR “modal”, but not really BOTH at the same time. The entire thing is very frustrating because to me the situation is black and white, but to most others it is very “grey”. So when you ask about the outnotes and colorful harmony, there are specific situations that this addressed but you need to approach from one angle or the other. NOT BOTH at the same time. If your question was looked at from a jazz view, then the key doesn’t matter. The chords exist as stand alone modes. If it was addressed from the Tonal harmony view, then you are dealing with either a “tonicization” using secondary dominant function, OR, a “modulation”. The difference between these two would have to do with context ie...what happens NEXT or before the passage in question. That is what learning proper harmonic analysis (of Bach chorales for example) teaches you. And there exist excellent examples where the situation is deliberately ambiguous. But what is the point of going down that road if the BASIC concept is not yet understood? Flamenco already exists in a form with it’s own terminology and methods for learning that don’t need this western type analysis. To make it worse, despite the clear tonal harmony techniques at play, EASTERN elements are always (even if superficially) present in the overall sound of flamenco. In other words, it would be possible to translate flamenco into a structure of the closest Indians ragas, talas, or the Makkams etc. But there, again, before doing that EVERYBODY needs to understand those systems at a pretty deep level in order to not translate some concept wrongly. For your specific question about hi jazz scale and it’s chords, I would say first understand, fully, how the basic KEY OF D MINOR works and accounts for all of it’s chords and modulations and scalar melodies. The saddest of all keys, but plenty of examples to look at. Flamenco is not really operating very different than that, at least where the accidentals come in and really matter.
|
|
|
|