alzapua (Full Version)

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Auda -> alzapua (Dec. 20 2020 17:28:01)

I have been concentrating more on my alzapua of late. It seems to be coming along alright though I do have a few questions for clarification. I will start by asking if the up/down(edit:down/up) flick of the movement is done with the wrist similar to the pronation of the wrist when performing a triplet rasgueado?

Cheers



JasonM -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 20 2020 17:41:41)

For me, it is mostly wrist as you describe. But the thumb is not super rigid either. I notice my thumb joint bends slightly on the down stoke (where you can insert a golpe) and more so with the up stroke return. There, it’s a combination of the wrist rotating up and the thumb joint extending to speed up the return to start a new cycle.



Auda -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 20 2020 17:48:44)

quote:

But the thumb is not super rigid either.


Good point. I have tried it with a rigid thumb but changed back to some flexibility in the thumb. All I can say about it is it seemed wrong.

Cheers



Ricardo -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 20 2020 19:01:57)

Certainly similar to abanico rasgueado.




Auda -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 20 2020 19:29:57)

Thanks Ricardo.

My next question or point is that when playing azalpua with a golpe the wrist cannot pronated on the down stroke on the down/up. It seems to me anatomically impossible. Any comments?

Cheers

PS I know it's a bit cheeky to ask but you wouldn't have the alazapua bit you played in tabs Ricardo? My ability to work these things out by ear has been diminished.



Ricardo -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 20 2020 20:33:32)

It’s hard to get the golpe working when going faster because, as I say near the end of the video, the up stroke does not do a full sweep. But even though the pronation is minimal it is still happening (as opposed to only thumb joint action as occurs with other techniques) because the up stroke requires it.

Most people need to start slow, 8th notes, and get a nice full sweeping up stroke with golpe every beat or every other beat to get started. Learn Almoraima intro A chord for example.



Auda -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 20 2020 20:49:54)

quote:

Learn Almoraima intro A chord for example.


I am working on that particular piece just now. I am happy with how it is progressing I just need to get it up to speed (though a couple of full chords with pull offs are a bit of a challenge towards the end).

The reason I brought up the golpe is that it appears after doing them I seem to keep a finger(s) down and am wondering how detrimental that might be? I noticed on your video that you were not doing that but it is mostly golpe free. I also liked the position of your thumb being close to a 90 degree angle to the strings.

Cheers



Ricardo -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 20 2020 21:41:00)

If you keep your ring finger down on the soundboard after the golpe hit, then you are anchoring the wrist and any other movement has no choice but to drive from the thumb joint. This is how the p-p-i sequence is done, and we are necessarily replacing the p up stroke with the i finger instead. I have seen some players do alzapua from the thumb joint, but honestly it feels very different. If you want to get the wrist movement the right way, you should not anchor the golpe finger, let it slide off the tap plate as the arm pronates.



Auda -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 20 2020 21:59:18)

quote:

If you want to get the wrist movement the right way, you should not anchor the golpe finger, let it slide off the tap plate as the arm pronates.


I think that is what I am doing but I rest at times a finger(s) even if I am not executing a golpe. Sounds like I need to stop that though it seems to give me more stability and therefore more accuracy.

My next question is again on the down stroke of the down/up. I have noticed when playing the down/up on just one string I appear to be playing the down with a rest stroke. It seems pretty much impossible to not play a rest stroke. I am wondering if I should be trying to play a rest stoke when more strings are involved. It seems I would have more control over the number of strings I am trying to play at least on the down stroke.

Cheers



Ricardo -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 21 2020 15:43:54)

I would need to see what you are doing, but the mechanics are simply down strum-up strum...those two are wrist action/pronation, and then rest stroke single bass note below the chord. There are times the bass note and the chord are both needed and you have to retract the thumb after the rest stroke is played...this is very challenging but again shows why that wrist action needs to be developed because you sort of “bounce” on that rest stroke.

A great exercise is the bulerias of sabicas first falseta on “Flamenco Puro”, you are required to play two rest stroke notes back to back as 8th notes after the down up action...and the wrist needs to be really loose to keep the compas.



Auda -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 21 2020 16:19:26)

What I was trying to say was after playing the bass note. Then the down/up on the string immediately next to the string of the bass note. Playing just that string. I have noticed when practicing this my thumb automatically rests on next string down (3rd string)prior to the up flick. So I was wondering if trying to use that 3rd string as sort of a stopper for control would have any detrimental ramifications and should I try this when playing more than 1 string of the down/up flick?

On the Sabicas piece - are you referring to Aires de Triana?



Ricardo -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 21 2020 16:33:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Auda

What I was trying to say was after playing the bass note. Then the down/up on the string immediately next to the string of the bass note. Playing just that string. I have noticed when practicing this my thumb automatically rests on next string down (3rd string)prior to the up flick. So I was wondering if trying to use that 3rd string as sort of a stopper for control would have any detrimental ramifications and should I try this when playing more than 1 string of the down/up flick?

On the Sabicas piece - are you referring to Aires de Triana?


If you rest twice in a row and pull up the thumb catching one string only, that is not alzapua. That is just pulgar action. STRUM by definition sweeps more than one string such that yes it is a rest stroke drag but the LAST string is necessarily FREE STROKE downward. If not, then you are not “strumming” you are just sweeping through a chord with pulgar. And if you only play free stroke on one string with thumb, that is not strumming either, it is just pulgar tirando.

So first master a slow or medium down strum-up strum-rest stroke, repeat action which is Alzapua. As you go faster the mechanics stays the same but the strum gets narrower so that if you DO only play two strings with alzapua, the mechanics is still the same.



Auda -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 21 2020 16:47:48)

I appreciate you taking the time Ricardo.

What I am referring to can be seen at about the 50 second mark on this video.



So was it the Aires de Triana you referenced above?



Ricardo -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 22 2020 16:07:13)

quote:

What I am referring to can be seen at about the 50 second mark on this video.


Exactly what I said. That’s not really alzapua, just pulgar and this exact thing might occur when doing say an ascending scale with pulgar. Right after that he does alzapua proper with pronation.



Auda -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 22 2020 16:45:00)

Well, ok. The question I am trying to ask is when he does that "non-alzapua" he appears to do it with a rest stroke like I seem to do. Now, when adding more strings and executing a real alzapua should I try it with a rest stroke? Also would you be able to clarify the bulerias you mentioned above.

Cheers



Ricardo -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 22 2020 16:52:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Auda

Well, ok. The question I am trying to ask is when he does that "non-alzapua" he appears to do it with a rest stroke like I seem to do. Now, when adding more strings and executing a real alzapua should I try it with a rest stroke? Also would you be able to clarify the bulerias you mentioned above.

Cheers


It’s not alzapua really. You do need this technique for passages or phrases that are not using a chord voicing such as scalar lines. You should practice it with a separate goal in mind. For alzapua proper, grisha shows that as the very first thing to work on. You are trying it backwards....two strings and expanding outward with it is no good. Do the opposite, use full chords to get the mechanics then as you increase speed you target smaller and smaller groups of strings.

The bulerias might be called that... there is only one on that album. EDIT, yes that is it, and some folks demonstrate it on youtube.



Auda -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 22 2020 17:06:28)

quote:

You are trying it backwards....two strings and expanding outward with it is no good. Do the opposite, use full chords to get the mechanics then as you increase speed you target smaller and smaller groups of strings.


That is what I do. I start with all the strings and eventually work down less strings (narrowing).

My confusion on the bulerias is because it is available for download but looking at the download it does not list a bluerias. However in addition to the "Puro" section there are also transcriptions by Trotter and that is what the first bulerias is called. I have previously worked on that one too with your gracious help.

Cheers



kitarist -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 22 2020 19:51:37)

quote:

My confusion on the bulerias is because it is available for download but looking at the download it does not list a bluerias.


You should be able to tell by ear, but also you can just look up the original LP. It is the last piece on B side of the 1959 LP, and yes there is only that one bulerias. Which is classified in the notes in the back as bulerias (bottom right in the image):




As to the falseta Ricardo is referring to, it is probably this, starting where the red arrow is pointing (EDIT No, see instead other image below). A few mental adjustments - the 16th notes would be the 8th notes Ricardo talks about - this transcription is weird in that it is in 3/4 but the 3 spans 6 of the flamenco compas beats (so two 3/4 measures span a 12-compas).

Also some of the right-hand fingering indications are probably wrong in the second half - where it asks you to do im alternation - that should still likely be just thumb work.



EDIT: No, it's the first few measures from the very beginning, sorry for the confusion:



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



mark indigo -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 22 2020 20:12:20)

quote:

My confusion on the bulerias is because it is available for download but looking at the download it does not list a bluerias. However in addition to the "Puro" section there are also transcriptions by Trotter and that is what the first bulerias is called. I have previously worked on that one too with your gracious help.


The different re-releases of the original 1959 "Flamenco Puro" LP have the tracks in a different order, but they all have the same tracks.

The Chant du Monde / Grandes Figures Du Flamenco - Sabicas volume has some tracks mis-labelled though, and the track labelled "Ecos Jerezanos" (Soleá por Bulería) is actually "Aires de Triana" (Bulerías).



Auda -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 22 2020 21:04:40)

Mark and Kitarist - Thanks for the clarification. Kitarist, where did you get that particular transcription? As I said I got the Trotter transcription off the web but yours seems cleaner. I have played this piece previously though have not for a while and so have lost it. I think i will have another go at it.

Cheers



kitarist -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 22 2020 22:21:44)

quote:

Kitarist, where did you get that particular transcription


Just merged a couple of images I found; google ["aires de triana" tablatura] and you will see on the images tab in the first few hits; says tablatura por Andres Palomo. But it is probably better to wait to see what others say about the quality of this transcription before that. The couple of things I already mentioned are not a good sign.



Auda -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 22 2020 23:37:11)

quote:

Just merged a couple of images I found; google ["aires de triana" tablatura] and you will see on the images tab in the first few hits; says tablatura por Andres Palomo. But it is probably better to wait to see what others say about the quality of this transcription before that. The couple of things I already mentioned are not a good sign.


I was hoping to find a tabbed version. I just worked through the Trotter transcription again. Though it is only in notation it is quality.

Cheers



Ricardo -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 23 2020 16:22:41)

quote:

As to the falseta Ricardo is referring to, it is probably this, starting where the red arrow is pointing.


No...this topic is about alzapua...the opening falseta ie the very first thing you hear is the thing to work on. The meter used in this transcription is not the one Faucher uses, however, it better captures the proper feeling of bulerias phrasing IMO. The meter used by Faucher is used to adhere to the connection to Solea compas. So you are correct to point out that what I described as 8th notes earlier would be read here as 16th notes.



kitarist -> RE: alzapua (Dec. 23 2020 19:03:36)

quote:

No...this topic is about alzapua..


Heh, sorry about that; got confused with the single line thumb sub-thread. Fixed above.



Auda -> RE: alzapua (Jan. 7 2021 19:08:52)

quote:

EDIT, yes that is it, and some folks demonstrate it on youtube.


Thanks for the clarification. Like I said I worked on this previously and I was not happy with my playing of the alzapua section now I have it mostly back. I am a bit more adept to it now.

Cheers



Auda -> RE: alzapua (Jan. 26 2021 16:18:29)

What is the typical top speed for alzapua using the bass note for bpm? What is the fastest anybody has gone? Just curious. I am about 120bpm with the clock granted that is only with muted strings. It seems fairly quick but I feel I can probably get faster if I can get my thumb to be even more relaxed.

Cheers



Piwin -> RE: alzapua (Jan. 26 2021 16:41:13)

Dunno what the fastest is. But, as an example, Almoraima has that long section with triplet alzapua, and that piece is what? 210-220 bpm?



Auda -> RE: alzapua (Jan. 26 2021 16:50:44)

Maybe my counting is off. I have been working on that particular piece and my speed is not too far off in that particular section in Grisha's GSI video though not as clean and consistent as of yet(hopefully in the future).

Cheers



Piwin -> RE: alzapua (Jan. 26 2021 17:29:08)

quote:

in Grisha's GSI video


Just had a quick listen. You can hear him counting in 2s with his foot, so 12-2-4-6-8-10. Maybe you were thinking of that as the beat, in which case double it to get the actual bpm. But yeah, if you do just one group of 3 (bass thumb, down stroke, up stroke) per beat at 120 on the metronome, you'll see that it's a lot slower than that.



Auda -> RE: alzapua (Jan. 26 2021 18:14:35)

Thanks Piwin. I'll have to think about it. I am fairly sure I am not going at half speed so it does not compute though I have been wrong many times in the past.

Cheers



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