El Cante (Full Version)

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Message

Morante -> El Cante (Dec. 11 2020 17:56:36)

There is no doubt that flamenco is changing, being a product of its society, but el cante is still alive.
Spain underwent great changes when Franco died. The apertura was immediate and extraordinary. The Movimiento in Madrid embraced modernity. Artists such as Raimundo Amador and Silverio discovered rock and blues. Alaska discovered punk: all old hat in Europe but new in Spain.
Camaron arived in Madrid and fell in with Ricardo Pachon (the Coronel Parker de flamenco). His first disco (Leyenda del Tiempo) abandoned flamenco.
Pachon directed his discos more towards comercial pop. But Camaron, being flamenco de verdad, toured extensively with Tomatito, always singing flamenco. Nuestro Camaron is the evidence. I saw them once in Dos Hermanos and it was flamenco puro.

However, it is clear that my point of view is different from the majority in this foro and probably not very relevant. I live in Andalucía, where there are many cantaores and where flamenco is cante. In Cádiz the cantaores are my neighbours and my friends. Many of them are young but committed to cante de verdad: Antonio Reyes, Rancapino Hijo, Caracolillo etc. And in Jerez many more. The policy of my Peña (de Juan Villar) is to have cante every Friday.
Obviously if you live in a place where the nearest cantaor is 100 miles away you will have a different perception, but in all the time I have lived here I have never seen a solo guitar recital.
El cante is alive and well in Andalucía, but i shall stop labouring the point.
[;)]



mark indigo -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 11 2020 18:14:04)

quote:

is clear that my point of view is different from the majority in this foro and probably not very relevant.


Your point of view is different from some, to be sure, but there may be more people sympathetic to your point of view than you realise.

Although it may be true that your point of view is different from the majority on the foro, your input is a very welcome and a much needed counter-balance to that majority.

For myself I like Cante and I also like solo guitar, but I can't stand pop-aflamencado or pop-flamenco fusion. Other people have different tastes and preferences.

Thanks to your posting a video of Carmen de la Jara I have been enjoying listening to two of her albums. Thank you![:)]



RobF -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 11 2020 18:43:01)

I think that while the discussions here may be quite guitar-centric and there is an active Lutherie section which adds to the perception, it might be giving a skewed impression of the members’ interests and there may be a greater appreciation of canté than appears at first glance. Not everyone who follows the Foro is comfortable contributing*, I spent close to ten years lurking before I finally got off the pot and joined. Also, not all members speak Spanish and that might make people a little wary of initiating or contributing to discussions about canté, not because they don’t enjoy it, but because they don’t feel qualified to voice their opinions. Guitar is different, because there is no such language barrier.

My listening habits lean heavily towards canté. I personally have little interest in listening to solo guitar releases unless there is a good percentage of canté mixed in. As a matter of fact, I have difficulty sitting through a release if it’s purely instrumental, and even the ones I like tend to only get a few plays. But, at the end of the day, I like it all, including stuff that isn’t puro.

My limited experience in visiting Spain is that amongst the local Andalusian population canté reigns supreme, there’s no doubt about that.

*I still remember when I first joined the Foro and someone posted a video that I quite enjoyed. I said how much I liked it and they replied with something to the effect of, yeah, well, it sucked. Then other old hands joined to say how much it sucked. Apparently, the guitarist wasn’t up to snuff. You can imagine how comfortable I felt commenting on anything else for a good while after that, lol. Food for thought.



Ricardo -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 11 2020 20:00:18)

quote:

The policy of my Peña (de Juan Villar) is to have cante every Friday.


Are they wearing masks? Cante done by 10pm? Just wondering how it’s going over there.

Of course flamenco is known globally via the guitar ever since Ramon Montoya made his solo albums in Paris in 1936. The new explorers of the genre often come from a guitar centric window, and the singing they encounter is often a matter of taste. Those of us who know about it need to educate others on what we think is good cante (as you have always done)...there is always going to be new people coming with guitar in hand that doesn’t yet know much about the cante, even Spaniards. The best thing to do is keep doors open to allow new people to experience the arte at ever deeper levels.

On facebook some smart ethnomusicologists presented a recording recreation of a “solea” from 1866....a piano piece that had nothing at all do do with the song form we know. So ignorance about cante is nothing exclusive to new guitar students.



BarkellWH -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 11 2020 20:43:46)

Actually, Sean, I think there are quite a few Foro members who enjoy cante and consider it the "heart" of flamenco. I know I do, although I enjoy listening to solo guitar as well.

In my case, I first encountered flamenco decades ago via Carlos Montoya and Sabicas, all guitar of course. For me, cante was an acquired taste, but after listening to albums many times over and attending a couple of concerts, I was hooked.

When I am on a road trip, say the six-hour trip from my home in Washington, DC to the Outer Banks of North Carolina, I always take with me a couple of CDs each of cante and solo guitar. I like to mix it up.

Bill



JasonM -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 11 2020 21:20:59)

El Cante de Verdad, no?




devilhand -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 18 2020 19:58:29)

Guys, I'm searching for a complete 'who accompanied who' list. But a list for recorded cante accompaniments only (audio or video). If it doesn't exist we can create such a list here on the foro.

I think the number of cantaors must exceed the number of tocaors such that only a few guitarists ended up accompanying. I mean the good ones because singers wanted to be accompanied by high profile tocaors.



Ricardo -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 19 2020 18:22:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

Guys, I'm searching for a complete 'who accompanied who' list. But a list for recorded cante accompaniments only (audio or video). If it doesn't exist we can create such a list here on the foro.

I think the number of cantaors must exceed the number of tocaors such that only a few guitarists ended up accompanying. I mean the good ones because singers wanted to be accompanied by high profile tocaors.


“Complete list” will be a challenge. However a while back I wanted to organize a viewing party and I made two schedules, the second one based on the the accompanying guitarists because yes indeed they are far fewer in number than the number of singers. It is a shame Paco de Lucia, niño ricardo, and Pepe Martinez are not shown in the series accompanying singers (Paco only accompanies his brother Pepe in one bulerias). But in all honesty I think Cepero is the best, and I really love Manuel Morao second best. Melchor is of course the most respected accompanist in history perhaps.
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=258991&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=rito&tmode=&smode=&s=#316999



mark indigo -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 19 2020 19:09:39)

I didn't realise the request was for a list or Rito y Geografia programmes....



Morante -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 20 2020 11:45:22)

Several fine but lesser known tocaores were dominant in their day: thinking of Manolo Dominguez, Quique Paredes, Paco de Antequera. Nowadays Antonio Carrión seems to pop up everywhere.



devilhand -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 20 2020 15:08:44)

quote:

Several fine but lesser known tocaores were dominant in their day

What about Manolo de Badajoz and Manolo de Huelva? Both were born in the 19th century. Are they ranked among historical figures of their generation such as Javier Molina and Ramon Montoya?



Morante -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 20 2020 16:45:54)

Cepero por bulería, Melchor por soleá, Felix de Utrera por alegrías[:D]



Ricardo -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 20 2020 18:58:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

I didn't realise the request was for a list or Rito y Geografia programmes....


It wasn’t...what he asked for is ridiculous really. But the closest thing I could think of was how I organized the viewing schedule for rito y geografia artists. Frankly it is orders of magnitude more educational to SEE a tacaor playing than simply hearing on a record.



mark indigo -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 20 2020 22:35:04)

quote:

It wasn’t...what he asked for is ridiculous really.

[:D]



Ricardo -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 21 2020 16:24:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

Several fine but lesser known tocaores were dominant in their day

What about Manolo de Badajoz and Manolo de Huelva? Both were born in the 19th century. Are they ranked among historical figures of their generation such as Javier Molina and Ramon Montoya?


Yes they are important along with Borrull father and son and Juan Habichuela Gandulla (not related to Pepe Habichuela) and Perico de lunar. Historically the most copied are going to be N. Ricardo and Melchor.



tf10music -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 22 2020 3:02:21)

quote:

Juan Habichuela Gandulla


He's on so many of my favorite recordings, honestly -- one of the very best.

Speaking of Juan Habichuelas, the one from Granada was outstanding for cante accompaniment as well, and doesn't get as much love as he should relative to how sought-after he was as an accompanist. As great as Pepe is, it's Juan who people talk about with the most reverence, in my experience, due to his sensitivity to both cante and baile.



Ricardo -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 22 2020 16:14:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tf10music

quote:

Juan Habichuela Gandulla


He's on so many of my favorite recordings, honestly -- one of the very best.

Speaking of Juan Habichuelas, the one from Granada was outstanding for cante accompaniment as well, and doesn't get as much love as he should relative to how sought-after he was as an accompanist. As great as Pepe is, it's Juan who people talk about with the most reverence, in my experience, due to his sensitivity to both cante and baile.


Juan is great. He is featured in Rito y Geografia with Fosforito. At one point he made a fabulous “solo” album that had some great cante and collaborations with other guitarists.



tf10music -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 23 2020 0:38:29)

quote:

Juan is great. He is featured in Rito y Geografia with Fosforio. At one point he made a fabulous “solo” album that had some great cante and collaborations with other guitarists.


Habas contadas is the big one, right? The double album with all the collaborations. It's a favorite of mine for sure, and it certainly captures his spirit as a tocaor



devilhand -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 23 2020 15:39:35)

quote:

It wasn’t...what he asked for is ridiculous really. But the closest thing I could think of was how I organized the viewing schedule for rito y geografia artists.

If there's a Flamenco God, he or she is looking at me. Today I found this list by pure chance. Actually this is what I was thinking first a few days ago. One can narrow down to only guitarristas antiguos and build on this list. A complete list will never be feasible for sure.

http://flamencoforever.blogspot.com/2016/03/guitarristas-con-cantaoresas.html



mark indigo -> RE: El Cante (Dec. 23 2020 18:10:03)

quote:

Juan is great. He is featured in Rito y Geografia with Fosforito. At one point he made a fabulous “solo” album that had some great cante and collaborations with other guitarists.
quote:

Habas contadas is the big one, right? The double album with all the collaborations. It's a favorite of mine for sure, and it certainly captures his spirit as a tocaor


He made 3 "solo" albums: "De La Zambra Al Duende", "Campo Del Príncipe" and "Una Guitarra En Granada", all with various contributors and collaborations, most tracks feature cante.

Habas contadas is a compilation of tracks from the 3 original releases.



devilhand -> RE: El Cante (Jan. 1 2021 21:26:08)

I can now say I can accompany Saeta. Ok. It's Saeta. Sin guitarra. The accompaniment makes no sense here. The tocaor looks bored. LoL. I like the way he looked at her and the chair behind at 0:43. A good right hand warm up though.




Morante -> RE: El Cante (Jan. 2 2021 0:07:33)

quote:

I can now say I can accompany Saeta. Ok. It's Saeta. Sin guitarra.


Well, there are various styles of saeta and one is por seguiriyas. We have a Peña de Cargadores who have a cultural week just before Semana Santa and one of the nights is dedicated to saeta.

I was called to accompany a singer in saeta por seguiriyas and it went very well: he even did a cambio por cabales.[;)]



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