Turning the wrist on arpeggios and picado (Full Version)

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XXX -> Turning the wrist on arpeggios and picado (Mar. 5 2006 20:50:28)

Ok I have a little problem. I noticed almost anybody who uploaded a video has a straight wrist, or it is turned towards the strings. I also have my wrist like that.
Now I experience some problems, when I want to do an arpeggio pami,pami on the strings 1,2,3,4, all equal tempo. Then also when I play picado + one note on a bass string its not easy either.
I noticed when I turn my wrist, like in the picture then it helps me with the picado. But doing arpeggio with that hurts a little, because then I hit the strings in an orthogonal angle and I feel that I cant dig into the strings as I want.

Same thing goes for picado, but in arpeggios this is more of an issue.



Hope some of you can help me there. My former teacher told me to turn the wrist a little. But it feels akward to hit the strings with that angle... Besides I dont think its too healthy for the nails.. I just dont know what to think [:(]

Ps: I chose this picture because I guess he was doing an arpeggio there.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Turning the wrist on arpeggios and picado (Mar. 5 2006 20:56:14)

You just have to play around with it, move things around. You're not going to have one position that suits all your techniques. Think about it, how likely is it that the very different techniques of pulgar, picado, rasgueado and arpeggio, which depend on different finger motions and angles, are going to be optimally performed from the same position?

I once asked a teacher in Spain (Miguel Angel Cortes), whether there is a different position for arpeggio and picado. "Of course" he replied.



XXX -> RE: Turning the wrist on arpeggios and picado (Mar. 5 2006 21:10:57)

Yes of course youre right. Im not searching one single position for all techniques. This "problem" I have is only related to arpeggios and to a smaller degree on picado.

Straight wrist: Problems with p and i when playing pami, pami
Turned wrist: Akward feeling on a,m,i and I dont have any power then.

I would never be able to do a pulgar with THAT position Paco uses there, and he also changes it when doing pulgar.

I think it also matters how much one can brace the thumb. Paco, in that position, has its thumb not much opened.



Ron.M -> RE: Turning the wrist on arpeggios and picado (Mar. 5 2006 21:17:31)

On watching various videos, it seems to me that ..say Manolo Sanlucar, seems to play arpegio and picado from basically the same hand position.
Which sounds very fast, but "light" IMO..
Same with Serranito..
Paco is different..
He definitely goes into a "fast picado" mode, where he straightens his hand up and attacks the strings more at right angles...like he sees it at being a different technique altogether.
In fact, he adjusts his whole body position and facial expression when doing so.
Interesting..

cheers

Ron



XXX -> RE: Turning the wrist on arpeggios and picado (Mar. 5 2006 22:41:34)

Yeah there is definitely a changing into picado in Pacos style. But if you take for example Grisha, he changes only very very little his hand position, even when doing pulgar!
But it wasnt actually the direction I would like to go.

I almost cant believe that Im the only one with this issue hmm...



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Turning the wrist on arpeggios and picado (Mar. 5 2006 22:55:37)

Everyone probably has to deal with it one way or another. Ron's comment was interesting. From what I understand, current classical guitar technique is generally taught using one position for arpeggios and scales. Supposedly rest strokes are almost extinct. I saw the Concierto de Aranjuez a week ago played by a young Croatian (I think), and he didn't seem to change position--it was all free strokes. As you would expect, the sound is rather homogenous. The runs did not have the power you want and you get from aggressive rest strokes.

I have also heard that modern flamenco is moving toward this "ideal".

I guess part of it is physiology, and part of it is how much you want to emphasize certain aspects of technique. You could probably play alzapua from an arpeggio position, but maybe not ever be able to get a full sound from it. And you can probably master scales and picado from several different angles, with of course several different techniques.

Personally, I feel there is a definite shift in position and "gear" when I switch from arpeggio/rasguead to picado, for example in Panaderos Flamencos. The transitions are tricky and have to be practiced for me.



Jamey -> RE: Turning the wrist on arpeggios and picado (Mar. 7 2006 0:07:05)

This discussion always seems to come up. I think it stems from classical guitar. Seriously, look at a player like El Niño Josele, no classical positioning, no "right way" of holding his hands, he's just bloody well all over the place. Yet he's amazing, has an incredible command of tone, volume, and can completely change his sound while playing. He bounces all over the place when playing, his hand position seems to be in constant change.

Works for him. Go with what works for you and practice/experiment with tone while doing it. Don't worry about this angle or that angle, just be comfortable. Playing shouldn't cause pain in your wrists etc.

To get a glimpse of Niño Josele's playing, rent or by "Los Almendros-Plaza Nueva" (short film, sometimes comes with the "Vengo" DVD) and/or "Blanco Y Negro - Bebo Valdes and Cigala" (Josele accompanies Cigala).

- Jamey



Ricardo -> RE: Turning the wrist on arpeggios and picado (Mar. 7 2006 15:44:33)

Deniz,a good video speaks a thousand words about this stuff, more than words and photos. Study videos like Rito y Geografia, for the techniques you are interested in. The camera angles are PERFECT in a lot of cases, of the right hand postion at the right moments. Watch your self practice in the mirror, try to emulate the "look" of the postion and see how it feels. Ultimately you want to feel comfortable.

You say you don't have power in ami, that is big problem. Try to keep the thumb down and feel like you push ami against it. If you have the vid I mentioned, notice the difference of position of PDL verses Manuel Morao, and Paco Cepero, etc.



XXX -> RE: Turning the wrist on arpeggios and picado (Mar. 7 2006 16:48:28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Try to keep the thumb down and feel like you push ami against it.


Hey Ricardo,

just wanted to give feedback that your advice already helped alot!
My hand was too much below the strings.



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