Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Full Version)

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Doitsujin -> Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Mar. 4 2006 10:40:06)

Hi,

I´m always wondering about such very very baad tabs which are in the internet. The fingering ist 0% possible and it sounds 70%ok. The rest is wrong, too. It always make me angry. Coz its better to have no tab than such a bad tab.
Who makes such tabs and post them in the net? They are absolute useless!
Why do some people put so much work into making an impossible tab???

On a dutch internet-page I found some tabs of Gerardo Nunez and Vicente. It looks like the autos know something about flamenco. But at the bottom of this page is a Tab of Gerardo which is called (Sevillanas) and its an incomplete very bad tabed part of the "Vals" of Gerardo... Its (3/4) but it doesnt fit in any way in the compas of the sevillanas. The autor must be a bit confused or ...I cant explain it.. I´m just speechless...

this one here is a very good example of what I´m talking about. Its Vicente Amigos Granaina (Morente) and so bad transcribed that it hurts.. Also the title of this Tab is (Morente-Solea)[:@][:@] OUCH!!! Who thinks a granaina is a solea???? I cant get this into my head... Its too much for me.

http://rapidshare.de/files/14656784/VA-_Solea_Morente.gtp.html
(Please read the text before downloading. I dont want that you thin I mad this mess..[:'(]



Jim9guitars -> RE: Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Mar. 4 2006 12:45:06)

I run into this with rock music tabs that my students bring me all the time. I think the people tabbing them are amature players with no knowledge of music theory that feel they have figured out the song by ear. But then they decide to tab it (usually badly because they don't understand theory) and put it on the internet, probably in a genuine effort to share it. I guess it's the same with flamenco tabs, I don't know, the few flamenco students I have own good books/DVD's like Graf-Martinez and Juan Martin and aren't at the level where they would look for tabs of great players yet.

Jim



Doitsujin -> RE: Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Mar. 4 2006 13:27:48)

Yes. Could be.

An other answere came into my mind. It could be that the fingering changed from right to wrong when someone imported the tab in an other tabbing programm. But if thats the answere.... where is the first right version?



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Mar. 4 2006 16:42:55)

quote:

Who makes such tabs and post them in the net?


I have to agree that there is a lot of "junk" out there when it comes to free tabs. In fact some that you pay for are not the greatest. You pay for what you get is true - to a point! [:D] You have to do your homework and know what you are after.

To create tabs takes time and effort. I have created over 2000 tabs of traditional flamenco so I can speak about this topic from several viewpoints.

Now, I must say that perhaps you have struck a chord with me. A pet pieve of mine is that all too often I hear someone "play flamenco", who has no concept of what they are doing. This was true in the early 1960's but even more so today. Today there is less excuse with all the recordings, methods and wealth of teachers that are available.



rick -> RE: Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Mar. 4 2006 17:29:17)

this is exactly the type of thread that creates a firestorm. I have some thoughts so bear with me. FIrst, i think that is true for all music not just flamenco. I have seen autrociious classical tabs and horrible rock tabs as well. It is true, what Jim says that frequetnly tabbers are mid proficient kinds of players without the benefit of scholarship. But maybe we shouldnt be too harsh. When one is learning he is tasked with either searching for tabs or printed music for sale as Tom suggests, or hiring a teacher. Not all teachers are great teachers. One can spend a lot of money with a teacher of any sort and not learn beans. A lot of the truly great players are looking for that mentor protege relationship and if you struggle whatever you are now beneath their dignity to really be involved with. Lets face it, learning the nuances of classical and particularly flamenco takes a knowledgeable teacher (hard to find) willing to share, Harder to find and now has the abilities to demonstrate pedagogy. Impossible. Most are not willing as Tom is to share what has gone before and genuinely help with the process of learning music, learning technique, learning nuances and putting up with a struggling music-phile. so where does one turn? One looks to availbable sources as the net to come with pertinent viability. In a way the net is the teacher. If students can find forums like this, they are much better off, but this forum is unique as to the proficient players who wish to share knowledge and experience. It doesnt exist in the classical side. Maybe the fault is not the student, but the teachers who want a fortune and doesnt teach. Maybe it is the lack of sponsorship at schools etc for creditable guitar like classical and certainly flamenco. Maybe it is the culture that suggests for whatever you want you have to pay. Who puts worthless junk on the net? People who are trying to understand. I dont see it as an influence meant to corrupt flamenco or any other genre, but as people who have not had the benefit of constructive, concerned learning. In that I salute Tom and his generous-ness and Miguel and several of you. Lets not be too hard on the tabbers, there is a whole world of stuff I wouldnt ahve a clue about if it were not for tab. When I searched for a flamenco teacher in the Chicago area, I contacted several players and was basically told you are not good enough to be my student. So I picked up what I could> that was five years ago and Im just beginning to get an understanding of classical - flamenco. I have a classical teacher and a old flamenco who are willing to take an interest in me and share the nuances of good music, but it was an immense struggle to find them. Lets face it, there are few flamencos in the world and fewer who want to spend time with a learner. One more line, I think those who can have a responsibility to share with those that cant, or the music dies. ( I think
Socrates (and John Lee Hooker) said something similare. It's not about making $$ necessarily, but spreading the word of the music.



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Mar. 4 2006 21:08:50)

quote:

Not all teachers are great teachers.


Rick;

I believe that I have stated that (in my opinion based upon experience and inquiry) 85% of teachers are incompetent. I think that I am being generous at that! With luck you will find a good teacher but how do you know a good teacher from one who takes your money, could care less about you, teach you incorrectly or not at all and says, “Come back next week” (with money in hand)!

Now this thing about teachers and level of students in most interesting. We all have to start somewhere. I enjoy beginners because they have not picked up bad habits. One of my teachers was and is Juan Serrano. I first met Juan in 1969 and have enjoyed his music for years before I met him. I brought our son Brian to Juan for his first lesson. We video taped the two hour session and Brian learned so much!

Another of my teachers is Mariano Cordoba whom I first met in 1959. Mariano was accompanist for Antonio and the Spanish Ballet. People told me, “Mariano only takes advanced students”! Gee, that is a great turn off if you are not advanced. Guess what? I asked Mariano if he took beginners. Mariano replied, “Of course”!

As for free Tabs, you can use them as a starting point or why not Tab something yourself? First you have to get a software application that will do what you want like TablEdit (my favorite). Then you have a choice – transpose from sound to paper what someone else has accomplished or create your own.

It really helps if you understand music – flamenco especially, as well as the software that you use. Trying to create music notation from flamenco is not easy and may not always be accurate. That is the nature of the music. It really helps to listen!

My take on learning flamenco guitar is that if you are serious you have to approach it in a concise manner. What do you want? Rumbas? Tangos? Or what? There is nothing wrong with the Gypsy Kings – what they do they do well. You must do your homework.

I am fortunate to have known people like Carlos Montoya and Sabicas and many more flamencos. They were so encouraging to me that I cannot express it in words. I like to encourage others, as did my mother, grandfather and so many others encourage my brother and I. Remember that Sabicas did not have a teacher – he taught himself. He would not teach his brother Diego who learned how to play flamenco guitar very well without the help of Sabicas.

Once you learn the basics you should try going off on your own and create your own sound. Why emulate someone else? Be yourself! Then you will truly learn flamenco!

My interest is Traditional Flamenco and that is a matter of choice. I have played for a number of well-known flamenco dancers and singers from Spain. I also did a number of solo tours so I think I know what I like.

You want to learn flamenco? My advice is to choose what area of flamenco you enjoy most. Learn basic technique! Apply basic techniques to one palo. Learn how to play that one palo with feeling. Be sure that it is simple. Who needs brilliant techniques who dazzle that audience and lack feeling? My greatest complements have come from flamencos from Spain who tell me that they felt my music.

As far as basic technique is concerned that is a great question! There are many ways to play basic techniques correctly. There is not one and only one way. True - some techniques you adopt may slow your picado or some other techinque. Such is life.

The reason that there are different flamenco techniques is simple! Guitarists in Spain did not have DVD’s or notation or established teachers in Spain. You learned from your father, or neighbor. Juan Serrano told me that the rasgueado he uses was taught to him by his father. It was based upon creating the sound of the plao – not the technique for the sake of the technique. This is typical of flamenco technique. If the sound is correct then the technique is too!

Do not expect to be a Sabicas or Paco de Lucia. If you start at about age four, live in Spain, and can hear flamenco music all around you that may help. How many of us have families to support and careers outside of flamenco? When I played professionally I practiced 10 hours a day and loved it. Attempt to do you best and enjoy what you are doing. It is meant to be fun and it is unless you expect more then is realistic.

As for me I am still learning and enjoying myself. My wife trained in flamenco cante and balie as a child and is my greatest critic. Playing music is my means of stress relief! If I can help someone learn anything about flamenco then I am happy. [:D]



Tenshu -> RE: Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Mar. 4 2006 23:57:03)

So don't use them.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Mar. 5 2006 0:38:00)

There is one way to free yourself of this whole teacher problem: work on your Ear. The Ear is so important to music, it's really the key. And the sad thing is there is a whole generation of players who ignore it. They use sheet music or tabs or DVDs and never learn how to use the ear. I know, because I was one of them! When you rely on a teacher or sheet music to show you the music, you are relying on an intermediary--a middleman. And like most middlemen, there is a cost and you may never be free of them.

My advice to any beginner or intermediate player is set aside time each day to work on the ear. Start with a single note, build to two, to three, to chords, etc. Every minute you spend on it will save you hours later!



rick -> RE: Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Mar. 5 2006 2:54:08)

Tom thanks for the reminiscent journey. It was hugely interesting to hear and cool to hear the warm reflection as you re-lived those moments again, thanks for sharing those memories and the processes as well. you have had an interesting life, and you are a generous man. Miguel you are right also, my ear sucks. (have you figured out that song for meyet haha it is getting better, but far off what I need it too do. I think that is one of the keys for flamenco actually, to figure it out yourself. Thanks again both of you cya.



edgar884 -> RE: Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Mar. 5 2006 5:44:30)

I love that comment Rick, and it goes with everything, to really get it you have to do it yourself.[:)]



duende -> RE: Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Mar. 5 2006 7:13:26)

Hey if you have a chance take a look in the "paco de lucia guitar tab" book.
the book is blue and has pics of other guitarits on the cover.

the only songs in that book that are "correct" is. Entre dos aguas,guajiras de lucia, punta umbria and cepa andaluze"
the other 6 or 7 songs are as wrong as it possibly can be.
The correct song are transcribed by a diffrent guy.
I wonder who that other guy is, im sure he´s not a guitar player.
notes played on the A string might be writen on the B string. Arpeggios are writen on ONE string. etc. i wonder how that book ever got published

Henrik



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Mar. 5 2006 15:11:52)

quote:

work on your Ear.


Mike;

AMEN! Great advice!

Listen, emulate the chords and play along with the source of music you are listening to. Know the chord progression and feel the music as you play. At the begining you do not need falsetas.

In Spain in 1963 there were no tabs or music notation given to students of flamenco guitarists. You might sit outside of the Barber's shop (not many Spaniards wanted a hair cut at 17 cents when 1/5th of vino tinto was three cents so many Barbers taught flamenco guitar to have an additional source of income) and learn by listening and watching. You learn how to do that with any source of music - listen and watch.

I have had Masters classes from well known guitarst from Spain within the last few years and not one of them had tabs or notation to offer. In fact I recall one very well known guitarist who would say, "Do this"! What chord is that? "I do not know"!

Learning by ear for any music instrument you play is very important.

Another point is why worry if a tab is not correct? Do you really want to play note for note what someone else has made their own? Why not add your own embelishments and do it your own way?

Whenever anyone would play in front of Sabicas to show him that they could play a work created by Sabicas, he would get upset and tell you that you should have your own sound.

I have read two interviews given by Paco de Lucia, about meeting Sabicas. In one he denies that he ever met him. In the other he plays a work of Sabicas and Sabicas tells him that he must create his own sound. Some early stories that come from the second version indicate that Paco was hurt by these words. He felt that Sabicas was jealous of his talent. A much later interview from Paco states that Paco was glad that he obtain the advice from Sabicas to have his own sound.

You must find your own path and enjoy what you do. At best trying to emulate someone else might make you a mirror of that person.

You want to really have fun with flamenco? Be a part of a Juerga, a family gathering, or a gathering with friends. That might be more difficult for some then finding a teacher, but if you can do it you will really enjoy yourself.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Mar. 6 2006 13:07:22)

Tom,
I have a friend named Lydia Torrea, an American-born, half-Spanish (galician) dancer from Phoenix AZ. She had a nice career, dancing with Jose Greco during the time that Paco de Lucia (just a teenager) played in his troupe. Of course, I've grilled her about that many times. Did you know Paco would become a superstar? Answer: I knew he was good, but had no idea he would become world famous!

Apparently because they were short on cash, they often had to cook food in the hotels on hot-plates, frying up fish. She said that one time they brought in Sabicas to see Paco play, while they were cooking. According to her, Sabicas nodded his head at Paco's playing, saying "No esta mal," until they chased the two great guitarists out of the room because they were getting in the way!

With an ex-diva retired dancer, I suppose you never can know the truth of such stories, but it's a good one nevertheless!



Exitao -> RE: Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Mar. 14 2006 2:45:57)

I think that there is some validity to the idea that a lot of people might have inadequate knowledge of theory.

That's part of the problem with tablature. Its purpose is to make music accessible to people needing only a basic understanding of theory. Without the theory, without access to a lead sheet or a score, the best they can do is approximate it.


Some people are gifted and can approximate a piece so closely that only a person intimately acquainted with a piece can discern that it's not 'correct.' Unfortunately most of us are nowhere near that gifted...



John O. -> RE: Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Apr. 22 2006 15:55:06)

I have some tabs on my web page, all self done from listening to CDs, none of which you won't see on a video played by me at the correct speed the exact same way they're transcribed.

I always used to look through these horrible books of notes and wonder if there are jobs for people like me who have a perfect ear and can transcribe just about anything. If I would learn notes probably there are...



Exitao -> RE: Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Apr. 26 2006 13:45:59)

I think there are. A lot of rock musicians can play well and 'write' music good enough to get a recording contract but, like you, can't read notes.

Some people compose through improvisation and never even tab it (e.g. jazz). But I think the guys who get jobs out of it are the ones who can hear and transcribe more than a few instruments.



edgar884 -> RE: Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Apr. 26 2006 15:25:31)

Chuscales has been lookin for someone to transcribe his music. Have you ever heard any of his stuff..



Doitsujin -> RE: Who writes such useless bad tabs? Why? For Whom???? (Apr. 27 2006 8:51:58)

Oh really? I transcribe for money. Also in notation it they want. I hope he throw a look in this forum here.[;)] I heared the name, but dont ever heared his music..



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