Cositas buenas book (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - Cositas buenas book: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=329598



Message

Filip -> Cositas buenas book (Oct. 2 2020 8:28:51)

Cositas buenas book of partituras ius out

https://www.storemusic-live.eu/Articulo~x~Cositas-buenas-libro-paco-de-lucia~IDArticulo~1819.html



Ricardo -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 2 2020 14:35:43)

Cool thanks for this. I still remember when I heard this album...I did a radio interview in DC and the Disc Jocky had a promo copy of the album that he gave me, so I got to hear this before it came out. I admit before Antonio Rey, I considered this and Gerardo’s Andando del Tiempo which came out at the same time, as the only two “great” solo guitar albums of the modern era (2000s). Of course I still prefer Zyryab material, but this was inspiring none the less. Although this guy’s transcriptions are not super accurate compared to FAUCHER for example, I still like to follow the score and garner a deeper understanding of the music.

For example the Luzia book had lots of problems, but with it I was able to make a complete “chart” of the harmonic structure of “Camaron”, which was a piece that I couldn’t quite wrap my ear around for many years. Now having that deeper harmonic view of the piece when I hear it, it actually sounds different. So I will probably grab this book too, thanks!



Filip -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 2 2020 18:35:29)

You're welcome. I will probably get it as well, I only have three books from the collection but definitely would like to try out a few falsetas from the album.

I remember when the album came out. At the time I was relatively new to Paco and had discovered him only about a year before through Friday Night first, and then the two LPs that my father had at home, Almoraima and the Falla one. My brother got me Antologia cd from his trip to Spain in the summer of 2003, and then in the fall I was on a school trip to Budapest and I managed to find Zyriab and Live one Summer Nigh. So I did not have much and I was not able to appreciate Paco's music and evolution completely.
In the summer of 2004 I went on a school trip to Bulgaria, and there I got Cositas Buenas from the street sellers. I remember that at first it was strange, almost everything except the tangos was somehow strange. But then I started liking it and I still do, though I don't listen to it that often.

In 2005 I was i Budapest at Paco's concert, my first one. I brought Cositas Buenas cover, and after the concert I run into Juan Estrada, a very kind man and a friend of Paco, who took it and gave it to Paco for an autograph backstage. Paco wrote "Viva Japon" on it :)))



kitarist -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 2 2020 18:49:39)

quote:

Although this guy’s transcriptions are not super accurate


Leiva makes mistakes? Damn, I thought he was the current gold standard in accurate flamenco transcriptions. Now I can't remember how/why I got that impression; was it marketing/presentation or community feedback..



Ricardo -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 3 2020 18:39:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

Although this guy’s transcriptions are not super accurate


Leiva makes mistakes? Damn, I thought he was the current gold standard in accurate flamenco transcriptions. Now I can't remember how/why I got that impression; was it marketing/presentation or community feedback..


We might have discussed this before. In the Paco collection I would say Fuente y caudal by cañizares is the most accurate. Even where he is guessing at fingerings, his educated guess are better than the rest. FAUCHER made lots of videos in order to get it right. He applied the logic to older material He didn’t have video of so he has a consistency I have always appreciated. I pointed out he will insert silly mistakes deliberately to catch plagiarizers, usually obvious timing errors that are easy to fix by the reader that knows compas well. I have noticed people ripping off his scores honestly.

I feel transcribers that do it only by ear (no video references) whether it’s a newbie or grisha, are doing their best to find things on the guitar that fall into familiar patterns...often there will be mistakes. As a player I am always balancing out whether to do it exact like the maestro, which might be awkward for me but important for some reason, vs doing my own thing with it that simply flows better in my hands.



singlechange -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 4 2020 2:55:43)

Always looking for good book.
Thanks for recommendation.



machopicasso -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 4 2020 6:04:25)

quote:

For example the Luzia book had lots of problems,...


Are the problems in the Luzia book clustered around any particular song(s)?

I know Faucher had transcriptions of "Rio De La Miel" and "Camaron." Does he have any others from this album?



mark indigo -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 8 2020 18:48:59)

quote:

Leiva makes mistakes? Damn, I thought he was the current gold standard in accurate flamenco transcriptions.


[:D] He is a long way off being any kind of gold standard! I don't know the later stuff so well, but I learnt some of "Duende Flamenco", and comparing what I get from the audio with Faucher and Leiva I can say that Faucher is much better, although IMO not 100%. A lot of that stuff Faucher was doing pre-digital from vinyl or tape, and without Youtube for video reference. If I can slow down an arpeggiated chord so I can clearly hear the separate notes, why can't Leiva? And if I can check available video on Youtube for correct fingerings, why can't Leiva? Comes across as kind of sloppy given the available resources.



Piwin -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 8 2020 19:15:50)

quote:

kind of sloppy given the available resources


Earlier this year I reviewed Yago Santos's scores somewhere on the foro (I forget which section I posted it in). I thought they were good compared to the average quality out there. But I couldn't help but chuckle when I ran into some obvious mistakes when the guy who wrote out the tabs was... Santos himself... I get making some classical notation mistakes for flamenco musicians (though, as a Berklee alum I assume Santos knows better), but obvious fingering mistakes on tab... it's just sloppy.

To me, Faucher stands out as the exception to the rule. But other than him I'm gradually moving further away from using tabs, even as reference. Though I'll admit that I'm always tempted by the PdL books, honestly just because I'm a dumb consumer and, since I already have several of them, I can't help but want the full set [8D]



Mark2 -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 8 2020 20:40:19)

Leiva released some video/books with accompaniment of famous letras using the original recordings, but with his playing instead of the original guitarists. If you hear this material, you may lose some confidence in his product line. But playing and transcribing are different skills and I have his Camaron book, and from what I looked at it seems pretty good.

Bottom line is that there will always be mistakes, no matter who does the work. I think it's a mistake to think buying any transcription will give you all the answers but no doubt they save tons of time.

I've been happy with tabsflamenco.com as well as many other sources, including the old books from Japan.



Ricardo -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 8 2020 20:53:04)

I made errors with my OWN DAMN compositions, as customers and students pointed out to me after purchasing from my website. [:D][:D]. They were pretty obvious from what I remember so not that big a deal.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 9 2020 1:09:21)

Ah, but think of the old days. In the early '60s there was a shop in Greenwich Village, New York City which catered mainly to the "folk" crowd. What took me there was the fact they sold nylon strings.

One day I came across a transcription of Sabicas's soleá "Bronce Gitano." I took it back the the Army post where I was stationed and got out my Paracho guitar. I listened to Sabicas and Escudero at the time, but I was pretty much completely ignorant of flamenco.

The transcription was utterly impossible to play for a novice like me, barre chords all over the place, with rapid changes.

A couple of weekends later I was at the club Zambra in New York City. I was a regular enough customer to get invited to the after hours juerga. Sabicas showed up. He never played exactly the same thing twice, but I managed to recognize a few falsetas of soleá. He was playing pa' arriba, with the cejilla on 2. The transcriber, absolutely ignorant of the guitar, but with a fairly good ear, had transcribed "Bronce Gitano" in F# Phrygian.

RNJ



Mark2 -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 9 2020 18:23:07)

This was pretty common. I have some early PdL stuff that is transcribed as if there was no capo. I'd guess a keyboard player did it.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Ah, but think of the old days. In the early '60s there was a shop in Greenwich Village, New York City which catered mainly to the "folk" crowd. What took me there was the fact they sold nylon strings.

One day I came across a transcription of Sabicas's soleá "Bronce Gitano." I took it back the the Army post where I was stationed and got out my Paracho guitar. I listened to Sabicas and Escudero at the time, but I was pretty much completely ignorant of flamenco.

The transcription was utterly impossible to play for a novice like me, barre chords all over the place, with rapid changes.

A couple of weekends later I was at the club Zambra in New York City. I was a regular enough customer to get invited to the after hours juerga. Sabicas showed up. He never played exactly the same thing twice, but I managed to recognize a few falsetas of soleá. He was playing pa' arriba, with the cejilla on 2. The transcriber, absolutely ignorant of the guitar, but with a fairly good ear, had transcribed "Bronce Gitano" in F# Phrygian.

RNJ



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 9 2020 18:28:32)

quote:

The transcriber, absolutely ignorant of the guitar, but with a fairly good ear, had transcribed "Bronce Gitano" in F# Phrygian.


I, too, remember the days when flamenco transcriptions, thin on the ground as they were, were apparently done by pianists with no clue about the guitar and no reference to the original artist. Some of them are still on sale at Amazon, e.g.:

https://www.amazon.com/Flamenco-Puro-Pure-Sabicas/dp/B001EUEOWA/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=B001EUEOWA&qid=1602264279&s=books&sr=1-1

In my experience most non-classical sheet music was like that in those days — including all the Beatles transcriptions from Northern Songs. In my opinion it was tantamount to fraud.



machopicasso -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 10 2020 5:55:07)

quote:

To me, Faucher stands out as the exception to the rule.


Has anyone actually compared Leiva's transcription of, say, "Rio De La Miel" with that of Faucher? I only have the latter and am curious if there are any significant differences.

Of course, Faucher's transcription is older. So, for me at least, Leiva's transcription should be at least as good.



Ricardo -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 10 2020 16:36:06)

quote:

In my opinion it was tantamount to fraud.


We discussed this before, so I thought. When an artist records his/her music, he or she is basically giving rights to a publisher whose responsibility is then to control (p) which are records tapes CD DVD etc, and also (c) which is the printed score. Publishers collect royalties from sales and pay the Artist from those and mechanicals (When others re record or re arrange those pieces they own) and performances (ascap or BMI collections from venues where the pieces are performed).

Publishers have people on their payroll that do certain jobs regarding the above, and one of these is to write on paper whatever was heard on all (p) materials in order to generate (c) in some sellable form. They could give fuk all about proper fingerings, it is about getting something into a store to generate (c) royalties in addition to (p), and also preventing anybody else from doing it first. If there is no (c), then an outside party can pay mechanical royalties and generate their own used by permission (c) and potentially do a more lucrative enterprise with a popular tune, so time is of the essence to control (c).

This is across the board all artists for all times. Only in super rare occurrences will you find a case where an artist:

1. Owns his own publishing
2. Writes and submits his own scores to his publisher

Probably a publisher would not allow 2. Because then what are they paying that guy on their payroll for?

When you see an excellent transcription of ANY guitar piece, 99 out of 100 cases, whoever did that work had to PAY out to a publisher a good portion of revenue for the rights to create it. Those guitar mags that used to have decent scores, all clearly name the guy on payroll that did the work, and the publisher they had to pay down at bottom for permission. I recall ONE out of thousand cases, where Jason Becker submitted his own score to the magazine, which was an unprecedented situation.

So those bad scores you find of flamenco are done quite deliberately and helped feed someone out there. Just be thankful for the under the table ILLEGAL transcriptions that are accurate that you occasionally get your hands on, they are gold.



JasonM -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 10 2020 18:01:54)

Anyone recommend a place to order these books? The Luzia book used to be on amazon but now I think I might have to order from Europe somewhere.



Paul Magnussen -> [Deleted] (Oct. 10 2020 19:23:13)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 10 2020 21:43:44



machopicasso -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 11 2020 3:37:08)

quote:

When you see an excellent transcription of ANY guitar piece, 99 out of 100 cases, whoever did that work had to PAY out to a publisher a good portion of revenue for the rights to create it.


But to what extent is that true for flamenco transcriptions? More importantly, to what extent is that true of the good flamenco transcriptions?

Also, is the printed score clause (i.e. your '(c)') included in the contract for every recording flamenco guitarist? If so, why don't we see any official transcriptions of Antonio Rey's music?



machopicasso -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 11 2020 5:38:16)

quote:

Anyone recommend a place to order these books? The Luzia book used to be on amazon but now I think I might have to order from Europe somewhere.


Yeah, I couldn't find anyone in the US selling at a reasonable price. So, two weeks ago, I bit the bullet and ordered two books from: https://www.flamencolive.com/html/libros_i.htm

They shipped promptly, but it looks like there's been a delay (on the Spain side) after the courier processed the shipment at their facility in Madrid. I'm going to contact them if the tracking info doesn't update by Sunday.



Ricardo -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 11 2020 17:44:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: machopicasso

quote:

When you see an excellent transcription of ANY guitar piece, 99 out of 100 cases, whoever did that work had to PAY out to a publisher a good portion of revenue for the rights to create it.


But to what extent is that true for flamenco transcriptions? More importantly, to what extent is that true of the good flamenco transcriptions?

Also, is the printed score clause (i.e. your '(c)') included in the contract for every recording flamenco guitarist? If so, why don't we see any official transcriptions of Antonio Rey's music?



The publisher will look at sales of (p) and decide if it was worth it to pay thousands to print some book version of (c) that they own and keep on file. I hoped to get lucky with polygram Iberia that I could pay them mechanicals and publish my own book of Tauromagia back in the 90s, as I noted the disc only printed (p), no (c). Via a mutual friend, Manolo offered us the green light to do the work. Later, before I was done with the project, Manolo’s manager informed him that Polygram did infact already have a BS score or sketch of the album on file, in other words they had (c) already, but flatly refused to give Americans permission to use the work at all, and admitted it wasn’t worth it to publish anything themselves! Manolo was pissed to discover he didn’t own the work himself!

Since then we do see some European transcribers such as Encuentro, worms, Leiva, etc, have had an easier time securing rights from Spanish publishers to print books. But I restate, MOST of the “good” transcriptions are done illegally and sold under the table.



Filip -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 11 2020 21:52:00)

For a few of Paco's pieces I have both Leiva's book and Faucher's transcriptions. When learning these falsetas, I would combine both sources and take what I feel as the most accurate/playable/comfortable for me.
In general though, I am more comfortable with Faucher's work.



machopicasso -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 12 2020 6:14:38)

quote:

Manolo’s manager informed him that Polygram did infact already have a BS score or sketch of the album on file, in other words they had (c) already, but flatly refused to give Americans permission to use the work at all, and admitted it wasn’t worth it to publish anything themselves!


Man, what a d*ck move by Polygram. 'Let's own the rights to the transcription, not produce one, and prevent everyone else from producing one!'



Ricardo -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 12 2020 17:47:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: machopicasso

quote:

Manolo’s manager informed him that Polygram did infact already have a BS score or sketch of the album on file, in other words they had (c) already, but flatly refused to give Americans permission to use the work at all, and admitted it wasn’t worth it to publish anything themselves!


Man, what a d*ck move by Polygram. 'Let's own the rights to the transcription, not produce one, and prevent everyone else from producing one!'


I know that there is a series by Claud Worms that printed the book of the album, I never checked it for accuracy, but knowing worms work I can guess. They certainly didn’t have a problem giving the rights to a European at some point to do the work. Americans definitly not. [:D]

https://www.amazon.com/Manolo-Sanlucar-Tauromagia-Flamenco-Concierto/dp/8493626066



machopicasso -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 13 2020 6:02:33)

quote:

I know that there is a series by Claud Worms that printed the book of the album, I never checked it for accuracy, but knowing worms work I can guess.


On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate the quality of Worms's transcription? How does it compare to that of Faucher and Leiva?



Ricardo -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 13 2020 19:09:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: machopicasso

quote:

I know that there is a series by Claud Worms that printed the book of the album, I never checked it for accuracy, but knowing worms work I can guess.


On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate the quality of Worms's transcription? How does it compare to that of Faucher and Leiva?


Faucher is better, worms may be a little better than Leiva. I like the score and album set up of Leiva, but if I want fingerings I go to video options. Comparing faucher and worms at a glance...reino de Silia, worms second chord is wrong. E9 should be in 6th position. That type of stuff.



mark indigo -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 13 2020 21:10:15)

quote:

Comparing faucher and worms at a glance...reino de Silia


I thought the intro of reino de silia was so bad in the worms version it had to be one of those "deliberate" mistakes.[&:]

agree faucher best and leiva worst of the 3



Ricardo -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 30 2020 17:35:03)

Ordered it a few days after this and just got it yesterday. Yes, a long time. I’m busy now but when I get time I will go through it. At a glance it looks nice, of course typical mistakes such as fingerings or rasgueado formulas. He takes time to explain how he notates solea and Alegrias differently than bulerias (former 1 is down beat, later 12 is downbeat) but writes the solea por bulerias the same as the 3 bulerias.



machopicasso -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 31 2020 5:30:12)

Did you order your copy from www.flamencolive.com ? If so, was it shipped initially via Correos with updated tracking information?

My order, which they shipped on September 28, still hasn't arrived.



Ricardo -> RE: Cositas buenas book (Oct. 31 2020 14:44:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: machopicasso

Did you order your copy from www.flamencolive.com ? If so, was it shipped initially via Correos with updated tracking information?

My order, which they shipped on September 28, still hasn't arrived.


Yes. Tracking stopped once it landed in USA. You can use the same tracking number in the destination country so I plugged it in to USPS and there it was up in New Jersey. From there I kept tracking it until it finally made it out my way.



Page: [1] 2    >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET