Echoes of Greece.. (Full Version)

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Romanza -> Echoes of Greece.. (Feb. 27 2006 14:36:31)

Does anyone else occassionally get 'Greek vibes' music when listening to flamenco? Particulary with really fast guitar pieces? The beginning of Paco's 'Rumba Improvisada' is disturbingly making me think of Zorba the Greek! El Vito is another one... Any links between Spanish and Greek music that anyone is aware of?



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Echoes of Greece.. (Feb. 27 2006 18:54:09)

Romanza,
go to grisha's site...grishagoryachev.com. He has a piece there when he was 9 years old, still a cute kid back then ( :) ), and plays a piece called Zarda de Monti. To my ears, the guitar sounds like it is emulating a bouzouki. Beautiful!



stratos13 -> RE: Echoes of Greece.. (Apr. 13 2006 14:42:16)

Hi there.I am from Greece and so i should place my reply on this.
i don't really know, but there sure is a great connection between the folk music of Greece and Spain. I am not the right person to aproach the similarities academically, but for sure i can give u some examples of my personal experiances on the subject.
There is a style of greek music called rembetico, that sounds scaringly close to flamenco, and also has somewhat the same kind of feeling.
I remember myself playing Asturias for my grandfather Sotiris, and he told me after. That was very magiko (μάγκικο), it is good for meraklides (μερακλήδες). These words are used when we are reffering to something that had a good rembetico feel to it.
Also, at many times when i play flamenco songs, people say: Oh that was a greek song right?
It is almost only the rasgueados that make them understand it was actually a flamenco song.
Other spanish songs that greek non-musicians falsely think of as being greek, are surprisingly:
Romanza,
Concierto Aranjuez (Adagio),
every Farruca,
La Paloma
and others...
Just a thing i have noticed through the years.
ps. Sorry for my poor English



flyeogh -> RE: Echoes of Greece.. (Apr. 13 2006 14:56:02)

Stratos nothing wrong with your english

You say every type of Farruca. In Greece is there a dance associated with this Farruca sound and is it a dance more for men as in Spain? In Spain they say the origins of Farruca are in the north west, Galicia and Asturias. It is a region I like and will be visiting a lot over the next six months (holiday house hunting). I was hoping to get into the local music and dance so this Farruca link fascinates me. Is music like a tree with many branches or is the structure far simpler with a few base incredients and slight variants?

I guess with sea and mountains there are geographical similarities between NW Spain and parts of Greece but historically beyond the pilgrims route to Santiago de Compostela I can't see how a Greek connection could be made. Recently there was some Romanian folk music posted here and that had a familiar feel as well (or maybe my musical ear is c**p [:D][:D])



luke.park -> RE: Echoes of Greece.. (Apr. 13 2006 22:54:24)

ciao
i just did a gig with these two guys polaying arabic/moorish stuff on bout ten different instruments. one of the guys was arabic and the other was greek. they played a blend of arabic and greek folk and i noticed how much influence they have on each other. of course the arabic sounds resounds strongly in flamenco and so all these links come in. thats why i find flamenco so fascinating, its like a moltenb pot of all these different cultures and societies and all their emotions, and it comes out.

its happening today still too, as places become more multi-cultural. just look at punjabi mc, the mixing of music there. also a lot of banghra sounds are going into garage music. its fascinating!![8D]



Exitao -> RE: Echoes of Greece.. (Apr. 14 2006 3:59:06)

Historically, Greece came into a lot of contact with the Macedonians and the Persians (IRC). At least the Persians would have been in a lot of contact with the Arabs. And Spain was occupied by the Moors, the remnants of whom (IRC), stayed in Andalusia which was named after the Moorish occupiers who had actually named Spain and Portugal Al-Andalus, hence Andalusia.
These people were the ones who allegedly mixed with the Gypsies after their lands were expropriated during the liberation from the Moors.

The Gypsies themselves were supposed to be nomadic and we know that there were (are?) Gypsies in Greece and allegedly migrated from Egypt. If you were passing from Africa (the continent) into Europe, you have to pass through Morocco (this is where the name 'Moor' comes from).

It makes sense that the various folk musics would have commonalities as they were like influenced by various forms of migration.



Kate -> RE: Echoes of Greece.. (Apr. 17 2006 13:09:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Exitao
If you were passing from Africa (the continent) into Europe, you have to pass through Morocco (this is where the name 'Moor' comes from).



Not necessarily, to get from Africa to Europe you have to cross the Mediterranean which you could do from Morocco, Algeria, Libya or Egypt.

Also I think that Morocco was named after the Moors ( who were actually Berbers)and not the other way round. I could be wrong on this but it was about a century after the Arab conquest of North Africa, in 788, that Moorish dynasties began to rule in Morocco, and they were called Moors before that happened.

Kate



Exitao -> RE: Echoes of Greece.. (Apr. 17 2006 13:27:31)

I was thinking more about entry into Spain. The logical place for mounting an attack on spain would have been Morocco. I don't know which was named first, but I do know that the names Moor(ish) and Morocco are etymologically linked.

This is what one online dictionary says:
quote:

Moor
"North African, Berber," 1390, from O.Fr. More, from M.L. Morus, from L. Maurus "inhabitant of Mauritania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Gk. Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adj. only appears in late Gk. and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India.

So it used to be Mauritania...


One of the etymological theories of the word Gypsy posits that they were assumed to have migrated to Europe from Egypt (not that his implies they were Egyptian, just that's where they had come from).



Kate -> RE: Echoes of Greece.. (Apr. 17 2006 14:27:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Exitao

I was thinking more about entry into Spain. The logical place for mounting an attack on spain would have been Morocco. I don't know which was named first, but I do know that the names Moor(ish) and Morocco are etymologically linked.



Ah yes sorry I agree, entry into Spain from Africa would be via Morocco and Moor and Morocco must be etymologically linked. I just thought that the Moors existed as a race before Morroco existed as a country. Will do a google search at some point and see what I can find out or better still walk down and see my Moroccan friends in town. My partner has worked on some fascinating documentaries about Morocco with Spanish film companies but none that cover the early period.

Regards the word Gypsy/Gitano, again I agree, it is a European word from when the first recorded Gypsies in Spain claimed to be pilgrims from Egypt. However I personally dont believe this could be the case as the Gypsies of Spain are Cale whereas the Gypsies of Egypt are Domari. In the UK they were originally called and called themselves Romaney ( I believe before the word Gypsy came into common use) as they were from the Roma tribe and now call themselves Romanichal (Child of the Roma). Gypsy history is a fascinating minefield of misinformation and supposition but I think everyone has agreed, due to similarities in language that they came out of India.

Kate



Exitao -> RE: Echoes of Greece.. (Apr. 18 2006 3:03:39)

Hmmm... Curious about the linguistic part. Their physiogamy does not appear similar Indians. Do you know how open or closed a society they were? Were they likely to have mixed with people from the lands they crossed?



Ricardo -> RE: Echoes of Greece.. (Apr. 18 2006 6:21:01)

quote:

Regards the word Gypsy/Gitano, again I agree, it is a European word from when the first recorded Gypsies in Spain claimed to be pilgrims from Egypt


Kate, you often talk about "walkin down" to see your gipsy or morocan friends. Do you mean the Albaicin area, that long ass set of stairs where they sell stuff? Did you ever see some gringo guiripayo idiot carrying a set of matched luggage with wheels behind, pushing a baby stroller with a lap top computer, portable DVD player, several Corte Ingles bags in front, with two guitars strapped on (one a negra), wearing freakin cowboy boots, going down that WHOLE walkway behind some hot fashion model with a toddler, last July? That would have been me. [:@] Luckily, she carried the stuff she bought along the way...until we got down to the bottom and could find a place to hang it on me.

Anyway, my friend is a flamenco singer from sevilla, gitano, he says his "clan", his people are from egypt. They know there are other gypsies from elswhere, but have it in their tradition to teach the next generation their roots are in egypt. So they have believed that for a long time, not sure why they would make it up. He does not have anything against the other gypsies from India or where ever they may have come from. So why would they need to make it up that they came from Egypt? I mean what is the prestige of being a pilgrim from Egypt vs a pilgrim from India?

So by saying "everyone has agreed" you mean the ethnomusicologists or whoever studies them, not the gypsies themselves...right? It is pretty interesting regardless. Anyway, he personally feels that flamenco cante is most similar to Arabic singing, vs other musics flamenco is often compared to.



Kate -> RE: Echoes of Greece.. (Apr. 18 2006 11:34:38)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Exitao
Their physiogamy does not appear similar Indians. Do you know how open or closed a society they were? Were they likely to have mixed with people from the lands they crossed?


Without a doubt the various tribes mixed with the indigineous people, depending on how open or closed they were and on the society they found themselves in. As for general looks I have known Gypsies ( Cale, Sinti, Lovari and Romanichal) with red hair, blue eyes, blond hair, green eyes, and some who look as if they just stepped out of India. I once went with a group of flamencos to play at a wedding . The groom and many of the guests were Indian and the flamencos kept saying to me, but they must be Gitanos. In Robin Totton's book he tells of taking an Indian friend to the Alhambra and how on seeing the Gypsy women she says that they look like Sindi Indians.

Have a look at this photo and see if you can tell which ones have no Gypsy ancestry.
http://www.deflamenco.com/agenda/verArticuloi.jsp?codigo=FLA%7C540

Kate



Kate -> RE: Echoes of Greece.. (Apr. 18 2006 11:38:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Kate, you often talk about "walkin down" to see your gipsy or morocan friends. Do you mean the Albaicin area, that long ass set of stairs where they sell stuff? Did you ever see some gringo guiripayo idiot carrying a set of matched luggage with wheels behind, pushing a baby stroller with a lap top computer, portable DVD player, several Corte Ingles bags in front, with two guitars strapped on (one a negra), wearing freakin cowboy boots, going down that WHOLE walkway behind some hot fashion model with a toddler, last July? That would have been me. [:@] Luckily, she carried the stuff she bought along the way...until we got down to the bottom and could find a place to hang it on me.


Yes I'm in the Albaicin and I walk up and down those steps usually about twice a day. Its my alternative to working out in a gym. Mind you if I was carrying as much as you were with toddler in tow I would have got the bus. Its funny but people who live here talk about going down to Granada as if they were not in Granada at all, and sometimes it feels like that. Have you a photo posted somewhere to see if I recognise you. I think I would have noticed the cowboy boots in July [;)]

Kate



Kate -> RE: Echoes of Greece.. (Apr. 18 2006 12:14:07)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Anyway, my friend is a flamenco singer from sevilla, gitano, he says his "clan", his people are from egypt. They know there are other gypsies from elswhere, but have it in their tradition to teach the next generation their roots are in egypt. So they have believed that for a long time, not sure why they would make it up. He does not have anything against the other gypsies from India or where ever they may have come from. So why would they need to make it up that they came from Egypt? I mean what is the prestige of being a pilgrim from Egypt vs a pilgrim from India?


I guess the prestige regarding the supposed Egyptian origin was connected with the bible. On first arriving in Spain they were given priveleges to collect alms, but that did not last long before their persecution began. One myth has it that they were expelled for harbouring the baby Jesus Another that they forged the nails for the cruxifiction. Some regarded them as the descendants of the two lost tribes of Israel. Others said Gypsies had been cursed by God because they had refused to shelter Mary and Joseph on their flight to Egypt. The Gypsies in Spain claimed they were on a pilgrimage in penance for the crime. Another myth has it that they were descended from the Pharoahs. Your friend is right in that it is more than likely they passed through Egypt before arriving in Spain but it is pretty much established now that they orginated ( their language being a form of ancient Sanskrit) in India.

Kate



Patrick -> RE: Echoes of Greece.. (Apr. 18 2006 17:34:50)

quote:

Have a look at this photo and see if you can tell which ones have no Gypsy ancestry.
http://www.deflamenco.com/agenda/verArticuloi.jsp?codigo=FLA%7C540


The lady in the back row on the left! LOL



Kate -> RE: Echoes of Greece.. (Apr. 19 2006 14:20:33)

Ha ha hello Patrick, you spotted me !!! But actually I do have Gypsy ancestry, my Grandmothers family being Sinti. I thought people may pick the blond girl in the front but she is a Gitana from Granada. The real answer is Harold, the guy in the middle wearing a checked shirt. [:D]

Kate



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