guitar solos as structured compositions...? (Full Version)

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Steelhead -> guitar solos as structured compositions...? (Jul. 12 2020 20:20:33)

Estimated compañeros,
I'm wondering if you can corroborate my understanding of guitar solos. It seems to me that before Paco (and for many ppl even after), the "guitar solo," whether recorded or performed, is basically a more or less random series of falsetas, any one of which can be detached and performed separately. E.g., for "Flamenco Puro," Sabicas strings together one set of bulerias falsetas and calls it "Aires de Triana." Then for another LP, another set, with a different name, but he or anyone might play any of those falsetas independently, and in concert he would not necessarily play these "pieces" the same way. (Or would he?) By contrast, there are the solos that are precomposed, and the guitarist does play it the same way in concert--from Escudero's "Impetu" to any PdL item. However, I might opine that most of these PdL items are not necessarily structured entities, with some sort of closure and thematic continuity, as opposed, for example, to Vicente's "Morente," whose opening theme recurs at the end. Is that an accurate way of seeing things?




machopicasso -> RE: guitar solos as structured compositions...? (Jul. 13 2020 6:32:31)

I expect that others more knowledgeable of the history will weigh in. That said, I'm not sure that the concept of a "solo", as you're using it here, is a useful concept in the context of flamenco. That's not to say that there aren't guitarists who are sensitive to issues of thematic continuity across falsetas. (Antonio Rey comes to mind). But I'm not sure that the concept of a guitar solo is the right way to carve up the phenomena in which I suspect you're interested.




Ricardo -> RE: guitar solos as structured compositions...? (Jul. 13 2020 15:44:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelhead

Estimated compañeros,
I'm wondering if you can corroborate my understanding of guitar solos. It seems to me that before Paco (and for many ppl even after), the "guitar solo," whether recorded or performed, is basically a more or less random series of falsetas, any one of which can be detached and performed separately. E.g., for "Flamenco Puro," Sabicas strings together one set of bulerias falsetas and calls it "Aires de Triana." Then for another LP, another set, with a different name, but he or anyone might play any of those falsetas independently, and in concert he would not necessarily play these "pieces" the same way. (Or would he?) By contrast, there are the solos that are precomposed, and the guitarist does play it the same way in concert--from Escudero's "Impetu" to any PdL item. However, I might opine that most of these PdL items are not necessarily structured entities, with some sort of closure and thematic continuity, as opposed, for example, to Vicente's "Morente," whose opening theme recurs at the end. Is that an accurate way of seeing things?



Everything you notice is correct but except for one thing. “Before paco” is not correct. It’s always been a mixture depending on the individual. You admitted Impetu by escudero which perhaps influenced young paco, but ignore some other examples. Ramon montoya recorded the first solo collection in 1937 and you can see “Rondeña” is a composition that became a model for a new form that didn’t exist before. Unlike his other pieces, that one he played the exact same way on a different recording (minus one falseta). So it goes back to the start. I believe “Minera” has two takes almost identical as well.

Anyway if you want a clear division, I would point to Manolo Sanlucar Tauromagia, and other works, where he uses the forms as a base for falsetas whose arrangement is set in a specific unchanging order. And by contrast any random modern player will still be doing the opposite which is improvised series of falsetas.




Steelhead -> RE: guitar solos as structured compositions...? (Jul. 14 2020 18:06:58)

aha, very good, thanks




Filip -> RE: guitar solos as structured compositions...? (Jul. 14 2020 22:31:13)

quote:

By contrast, there are the solos that are precomposed, and the guitarist does play it the same way in concert--from Escudero's "Impetu" to any PdL item.

I always thought that Paco had it in both worlds, meaning that his falsetas were both perfectly built into an idea and "geography" of a composition, and at the same time independent enough to be combined with falsetas from other compositions (as after all he did in concerts).




JasonM -> RE: guitar solos as structured compositions...? (Jul. 15 2020 16:27:02)

Yeah I agree with that regarding Paco. Although when I hear a Paco falseta played ad-hoc I can’t help but associate it with time period /album!




xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: guitar solos as structured compositions...? (Jul. 15 2020 21:18:24)

...and he frequently shifted his falsetas into other keys as well!




machopicasso -> RE: guitar solos as structured compositions...? (Jul. 17 2020 5:45:45)

quote:

Ramon montoya recorded the first solo collection in 1937 and you can see “Rondeña” is a composition that became a model for a new form that didn’t exist before.


Ricardo, are you saying that Montoya's "Rondeña" was the first Rondeña ever, or something else?




Filip -> RE: guitar solos as structured compositions...? (Jul. 17 2020 10:25:26)

quote:

...and he frequently shifted his falsetas into other keys as well!

Yes, that too.




Ricardo -> RE: guitar solos as structured compositions...? (Jul. 17 2020 17:24:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: machopicasso

quote:

Ramon montoya recorded the first solo collection in 1937 and you can see “Rondeña” is a composition that became a model for a new form that didn’t exist before.


Ricardo, are you saying that Montoya's "Rondeña" was the first Rondeña ever, or something else?


Assuming your loaded question understands first the difference between the cante and the guitar solo versions, then yes. He should have called his solo “Levantica “, but instead, it is what it is.




machopicasso -> RE: guitar solos as structured compositions...? (Jul. 18 2020 5:35:34)

Sorry, no loaded question intended. I was thinking of the solo guitar form. Just trying to better understand the history of it all.




Ricardo -> RE: guitar solos as structured compositions...? (Jul. 18 2020 16:58:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: machopicasso

Sorry, no loaded question intended. I was thinking of the solo guitar form. Just trying to better understand the history of it all.


Ramon Montoya was the first to record an album of guitar solos in Paris 1937. Before this (30 some years) he had recorded tons for various singers ever since the first wax cylinders. I believe he was pressured to do so by some of his friends that were impressed by the success fellow Spaniard Segovia experienced after making his debut recording in Paris 10 years earlier. They thought if that kid could do it, why not the true seasoned maestro Ramon?[:D]




machopicasso -> RE: guitar solos as structured compositions...? (Jul. 19 2020 3:36:09)

That's fascinating. What's the name of that album?

And what's the deal then with "El genio de la guitarra flamenca"? According to the website description, it "collects historical recordings of the guitarist Ramón Montoya in the period running from 1923 and 1936." Is this cante accompaniment, or did he record isolated solo pieces before the 1937 Paris album?

https://web.archive.org/web/20060617215553/http://www.esflamenco.com/product/en50113503.html




Ricardo -> RE: guitar solos as structured compositions...? (Jul. 19 2020 4:51:31)

He recorded In Paris late in 1936, October, and the 6 disc set, 14 tracks, came out in late November called Arte Clasico Flamenco. I was thinking segovia records 1927, so 9 years and some months earlier.

The other tracks he recorded on the CD set are alternate takes, random solos, some duets with a guitar student, and also duets with saxophone doing the cante melody. The 1923 old tracks are malaguenas and granaina with Antonio Chacon singing.

FAUCHER has a book transcription in standard notation of 12 tracks.




Richard Jernigan -> RE: guitar solos as structured compositions...? (Jul. 20 2020 0:42:57)

quote:


Montoya gave guitar lessons to Marius de Zayas, whose son Rodrigo de Zayas become a great and well known Seville musicologist, a specialist in classical Andalusian music. In 1936, Marius de Zayas suggested that Montoya, who had only recorded accompaniment, record his first solo album in Paris: "Arte clasico flamenco". A triumphal concert was given at the Casino in Biarritz on September 7, 1936. The man who agreed to produce the records underwritten by de Zayas was Levy-Alvarez, head of "La Boite Musique" in Paris.


This is from the Amazon review of "Great Masters of Flamenco vol. 5," though I had known of Zayas' role for years. Somewhere on the record shelves is a version of "Arte Clasico Flamenco" with a foreword by Rodrigo de Zayas. His mother was pregnant with him in 1936 when Montoya recorded in Paris.

RNJ




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