Pulgar Index Revisited (Full Version)

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devilhand -> Pulgar Index Revisited (Jul. 7 2020 21:03:06)

Can I use P A or P M instead of pulgar index?
The following situation. I play pimami arpeggio on beat 1 and 2. What follows is the 8th note pulgar index on beat 3 (pulgar plays some bass string and index high E). Since my ring finger is floating right next to the high E string (basic arpeggio right hand position. Index on G, middle on B and ring finger on E string), it's for me easier to play that high E string with my ring finger. Should I stick with P I because it's the technique that exists and produces that flamenco tone? I haven't heard of P A or P M technique.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (Jul. 7 2020 21:33:53)

You can try that, but your ring finger won't produce the desired tone. Possibly you could be holding your right hand in a wrong way too.
For years I insisted on using Pam for rasgueado instead of Pai because I could do it faster, but that's all changed, the tone wasn't so good. All these techniques that "exist", exist for a reason.



Ricardo -> RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (Jul. 8 2020 2:05:27)

quote:

Can I use P A or P M instead of pulgar index?


No.



devilhand -> RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (Aug. 18 2020 13:15:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

Can I use P A or P M instead of pulgar index?


No.

My PM or PA seem to sound the same as PI. Could you tell the reasons why PM and PA can't be used? Is it possible that PI is established for historical reasons, and not because we want to achieve a certain tone with P I?
I remember G. Nunez saying in his video, for PI tocaor had to accent pulgar by using a or m finger golpe in the old days meaning they had to be played simultaneously.

My theory is the only free finger was index finger. So P I technique was born.



Auda -> RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (Aug. 18 2020 15:01:38)

I had thought along the same lines too. I tried playing pmp for a section in Zapteado in Re that is played a few times quickly in a 10 fret span. I have now switched to pip that I think is the way it is usually played and found it is a better fit. For a folk idiom Flamenco sure has lots of "rules".



Ricardo -> RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (Aug. 18 2020 16:46:04)

Basically when you play with Thumb and finger combos you want to cater to the best ami fingers orientation. That means the thumb has to be adaptable and “give up” on its ideal flamenco tone and feel in many cases. When you have a pulgar dominant melody, we necessarily switch our posture to facilitate the more aggressive flamenco tone. But if we might need to use a finger to catch the first string or something for color or ostenato, the orientation of the thumb does not permit comfortable use of the m or a finger because, if you file your nails correctly for tone, you will have edges exposed you don’t want to catch in the new thumb driven posture. Only the INDEX finger might function, and it’s for this reason a “ramp” designed for filing will run opposite the ring finger direction.

Also, as mentioned golpes with a and m fingers together are used opposite pulgar accents.

Lastly, most newbies to flamenco feel the opposing action of p and m “faster” and more secure for fast passages and find p i awkward. The main reason is they have the wrong concept of how pulgar is played. They are retracting the thumb even for rest stroke. They must first learn to drag the thumb across strings in rhythm. Once they got that they need to learn to sneak in the index note in between the thumb drags... so it’s a coordination thing they are missing at first. The thumb drag often corresponds to the posture change I referred to earlier as well. Then it suddenly makes sense why a or m is dumb as a substitute.



Auda -> RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (Aug. 18 2020 18:41:00)

quote:

They must first learn to drag the thumb across strings in rhythm.


The piece has helped me with the dragging technique (I believe) especially the section we had discussed previously on a different thread. My conception of it is going deeper into the strings with the pulgar to get the dragging effect.

The pip I referred to above uses the same bass note for the p for each triplet. You might know the part I am talking about.

Cheers

PS I still have yet to get the dragging technique down for tremolo though I confess I have not worked on it much yet since the particular pieces I have learned/learning (mostly by Sabicas) have not really utilised the methodology. I'm sure I will eventually get to a piece that does.



Filip -> RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (Aug. 18 2020 20:04:09)

Is it correct to say that the proper thumb position for playing PI or PIP sequences is the same as the position for playing alzapua or for playing thumb alone, as opposed to the position used for tremolo or arpeggio?



Ricardo -> RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (Aug. 19 2020 16:48:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Filip

Is it correct to say that the proper thumb position for playing PI or PIP sequences is the same as the position for playing alzapua or for playing thumb alone, as opposed to the position used for tremolo or arpeggio?


In general yes.



devilhand -> RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (Aug. 19 2020 17:17:01)

quote:

Basically when you play with Thumb and finger combos you want to cater to the best ami fingers orientation. That means the thumb has to be adaptable and “give up” on its ideal flamenco tone and feel in many cases. When you have a pulgar dominant melody, we necessarily switch our posture to facilitate the more aggressive flamenco tone.


I really like the idea of distinguishing between a pulgar and arpeggio dominant sound.
PI mentioned in my opening post was arpeggio driven because the whole 12 beat compas was full of arps and one or two PI got sandwiched between those arps. It's definitely not PIP. Those arps must be played fast as well. So I thought I could use PM or particularly PA instead of PI because my ring finger is ready to pluck the high E string due to my basic arpeggio hand position. But I don't know if there's a flamenco tone produced by PI in an arpeggio dominant section of the music. I very much doubt that PI can be seen as a short version of PAMI arpeggio in this particular situation. Maybe I should ask the same question. Can I use PM or PA instead of PI in this situation?



Filip -> RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (Aug. 20 2020 8:18:42)

Thanks Ricardo.

During the lockdown I was working on a few flamenco techniques. I noticed that my usual hand position when doing PI/PIP exercises is the same as tremolo/arpeggio position. I found it easier to play that way, but then I saw Oscar Herrero's DVD and he plays in other hand position. I practiced more pulgar/alzapua position after, but until now it was unclear to me which is the correct one and why.



devilhand -> RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (Aug. 20 2020 18:07:43)

quote:

I noticed that my usual hand position when doing PI/PIP exercises is the same as tremolo/arpeggio position. I found it easier to play that way, but then I saw Oscar Herrero's DVD and he plays in other hand position.

Talking about O. Herrero he advocates 2 main right hand positions. Flat wrist for arpeggio, tremolo and picado. Arched wrist for pulgar, alzapua and rasgueado. But somehow I believe flat wrist restricts the finger movement from the big knuckle. So my wrist is slightly arched for arpeggio, tremolo and picado.



devilhand -> RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (Nov. 22 2021 16:59:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Filip

Is it correct to say that the proper thumb position for playing PI or PIP sequences is the same as the position for playing alzapua or for playing thumb alone, as opposed to the position used for tremolo or arpeggio?


In general yes.

Is this the thumb position for PI or PIP at 20:26 and 20:35?
Looks like his hand position for pulgar doesn't change, but his thumb moves a bit towards the soundhole to play PI.
Maybe one can see the whole picture better at 20:23-20:45. He switches between 2 different thumb positions.




etta -> RE: Pulgar Index Revisited (Nov. 22 2021 17:36:05)

I enjoy playing the flamenco guitar; it is a vital part my life. But...when I read posts like this one, (pulgar index revisited), I am amazed. Sometimes I think we are prone to "paralysis by analysis".



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