How do you not become a mediocre player? (Full Version)

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TGerman -> How do you not become a mediocre player? (Feb. 24 2006 11:40:42)

A recent quote from ToddK, and one that I have seen many times, "...Decent players are everywhere" makes me wonder, how do you avoid mediocrity and become ? The obvious answer is practice, practice, practice but at what point do you define your playing as decent or above average? Is it possible to become an excelent player later in life (I, for example, am a newbie at 34 (wow, gettin' old))? Or is it a combination of natural talent, practice and finding the right teacher?

Todd

BTW - I do not recommend getting shoulder surgery, it is MISERABLE!!! Only 2 more weeks to go in this immobilizer (for a total of 6 weeks) before I can pick up the guitar again and attempt to play. Arghhh!




Miguel de Maria -> RE: How do you not become a mediocre player? (Feb. 24 2006 14:41:20)

Well, I'm a mediocre player, so don't know if my advice really counts... :)

Let me make a distinction. There are two broad categories that I have noticed among experienced players. One is the competent musician. The other is the eternal intermediate player.

The competent musician plays with good rhythm, enough technique to play music, good enough ear to pick up music to play with other musicians, and a repertoire of songs he can play without messing them up.

The eternal intermediate player usually plays Paco de Lucia or Vicente Amigo pieces with bad rhythm and lots of mistakes or weak notes. He may be able to play along with a compas CD, but he wouldn't have much of a chance of pulling them off in a live situation. The eternal intermediate player has invested a lot of time in tremolo and picado, and can usually wow friends and family with these flashy techniques. Of course, he probably knows that they aren't _really_ mastered, and they aren't reliable under pressure situations.

Notice that in my competent musician category I didn't mention the difficulty of the pieces. You see, I put Grisha in this category, as well as a bunch of mediocre musicians who can just strum some chords in compas for singers. To me, it's a mindset and way of prioritizing your time. You can have flash, but you have to have the foundation. I think the foundation is rhythm, technical ease, knowledge of songs, and the ear (the ear can be intuitive or analytical knowledge of harmony, chord patterns, and intervals).

The lesson I get, at least, from listening to Grisha's and Todd's advice is to slow down, work constantly on my rhythmic accuracy and other aspects of basic musicianship. Whether this means I will end up playing flashy and complicated parts with the kind of verve they show is unknown. I do, think, however, that it will eventually at least land me in the competent musician category, which is where I would like to be.




Ron.M -> RE: How do you not become a mediocre player? (Feb. 24 2006 16:34:14)

quote:

The eternal intermediate player usually plays Paco de Lucia or Vicente Amigo pieces with bad rhythm and lots of mistakes or weak notes


That's a brilliant post Mike!

I've got a huge amount of respect for those studio "session" musicians who just turn up and get on with it. Totally solid techniques under all circumstances... Just great.

cheers

Ron




duende -> RE: How do you not become a mediocre player? (Feb. 24 2006 20:04:09)

quote:

How do you not become a mediocre player?



well, first of all...donĀ“t be me




sorin popovici -> RE: How do you not become a mediocre player? (Feb. 27 2006 3:12:51)

I dont really buy the overwork in tremolo ,I think there is this thing among the flamenco players that "well,tremolo doesnt really count" .Nunez says this right at the begining of the tremolo section in his encuentro(well his exact words are "tremolos are btw played less and
less frequently,which i personally think is a shame,I think they should be incorporated more often").

Look at Johnny's tremolo (former know as J13527 or smth like that) that's a good tremolo.To me a bad tremolo means that player doesnt have a basic technique(tremolo is a basic technique just like arpeggios) [:)] and doesnt like to admit it.A very good tremolo is related to good arpegios and overall good right hand technique.To me it seems very logical that all techniques are related to each other and u cant be very good at tremolo and really suck at everything else.It really comes down on how good is he doing his tremolo and picado.He can play scales at 200 bpm very clear and loud and he doesnt play anything else good?I never seen a player that he can be like that so this is too theoretical for me.

I agree with you about
"The competent musician plays with good rhythm, enough technique to play music, good enough ear to pick up music to play with other musicians, and a repertoire of songs he can play without messing them up." and I also liked your post for your sincerity.
I just wanted to point out that it's very getting very popular thing not to play tremolo and
I just dont really like it.Maybe i interpreted your post wrong and I apologize if I did.
I tried the fuente y caudal tremolo...that is serious work man,I dont know any mediocre players that can play that well!




Miguel de Maria -> RE: How do you not become a mediocre player? (Feb. 27 2006 5:06:08)

Sorin,
my post wasn't meant to be directed to you or anyone in particular. It speaks from my experience of tackling hard pieces as an intermediate player, and then, as my ear and musicianship improved, realizing they didn't sound good. I haven't heard John's clip, but I did read the comments on it, and I have to assume he is awesome. But notice that what the good players commented on was timing, not any particular technique.

You can play picado or tremolo or rasgueado or any other technique damn fast, and then later realize they were sloppy and basically worthless. I'm not saying that applies to you in particular, it is more about my personal journey.

I know you are working on fundamental musicianship, for example your foray into solfege, so I think you are on the right track.




sorin popovici -> RE: How do you not become a mediocre player? (Feb. 27 2006 7:00:32)

sorry Miguel, I dont know how do I light up so fast...I try to avoid it cause I know I have this tendency,but I also wrote what I wrote to say what I feel about the tremolo subject and to defend a little this technique as I like it very much and there are lot of people that fell in love with guitar just for recuerdos d'alhambra or "una limosna por el amor de dios".I like these memories and to me it was a reason to work harder.

I remember that the first thing that grabbed my atention when seeing first Grisha playing
that Nunez siguiryias(i think is called Remache) was that beautiful tremolo.I say "defend"
this technique ,but I do not mean that u atacked it .I mean it more like ,it can be read that way also to someone who's not carefoul and not experienced enough(I am not saying that
I have so much experience but I am saying that there are people who read and jump (just
as I am sometimes) to conclusions).Sure tremolo can also be boring,but arpegios,rasgueados ,picado can be boring for the same reasons just as tremolo.I dont think people can overexercise the tremolo,I look at some tremolos just like the one in fuente y caudal and to me ,puting enough sweat into that, it will pay off eventually.Though
I dont think u can overexercise smth,I know u are right about exercising it wrong ....and
I hope I'll see the day when I wont have to relearn anything again ,as this is the most frustrating thing to me.Just wanted to say that.
I apologize again,but I feel like I am making a little progress...six months ago I would have lost it [:)] and light up for no reason.Again that was just my opinion on tremolo ..all else about "working constantly on my rhythmic accuracy and other aspects of basic musicianship" I agree and unfortunately this is the hardest part.




Jon Boyes -> RE: How do you not become a mediocre player? (Feb. 27 2006 9:48:30)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Let me make a distinction. There are two broad categories that I have noticed among experienced players. One is the competent musician. The other is the eternal intermediate player.


Very sharp post Mike.




Miguel de Maria -> RE: How do you not become a mediocre player? (Feb. 27 2006 18:52:51)

Sorin,
I noticed! You are thinking more and writing less :)

By the way, I love tremolo. It has always been one of my favorite techniques and learning Recuerdos was a great thing for getting gigs. Have you heard Manolo Sanlucar's tremolo on Oracion on Tauromagia? If not, get this! You will fall in love with the technique all over again.




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