RE: opinions about rubato playing? (Full Version)

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mark indigo -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (May 2 2020 18:23:53)

quote:

Any specific spot?


lots of them!

referring to the studio recording

end of the 3rd compas B maj triad is (i think) on 9 at 0.19, and then that compas seems to just trail off vaguely.... if i tap my foot and cound the taps the 4th compas comes on 12+ but i think it's probably meant to be 1+ as there is then an accent on 3 and the rest of the compas seems to line up ok for me.

then it repeats, fifth compas also peaks on B triad on 9 at 0.32 and again seems to come straight in on what sounds metronomically like 12 but is probably 1.

then the 7th compas at 0.41, that one seems really stretched out....

then the llamada at 0.48 or 0.49 - can never tell where that is starting, or where the first couple of golpes hit.... the second compas of the llamada at 0.55 that he is playing abanico i can follow fine....

I have usually given up by this point, unsure whether it is very elastic or libre.



Ricardo -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (May 3 2020 19:11:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Any specific spot?


lots of them!

referring to the studio recording

end of the 3rd compas B maj triad is (i think) on 9 at 0.19, and then that compas seems to just trail off vaguely.... if i tap my foot and cound the taps the 4th compas comes on 12+ but i think it's probably meant to be 1+ as there is then an accent on 3 and the rest of the compas seems to line up ok for me.

then it repeats, fifth compas also peaks on B triad on 9 at 0.32 and again seems to come straight in on what sounds metronomically like 12 but is probably 1.

then the 7th compas at 0.41, that one seems really stretched out....

then the llamada at 0.48 or 0.49 - can never tell where that is starting, or where the first couple of golpes hit.... the second compas of the llamada at 0.55 that he is playing abanico i can follow fine....

I have usually given up by this point, unsure whether it is very elastic or libre.


As you can see he likes to accelerate the conclusions of the two compas phrases.




Piwin -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (May 3 2020 19:14:26)

lol, looks like you have a hater who rushed to downvote that video [:D]
watched it when there was 6 views on the counter and someone had downvoted it [8D]



Ricardo -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (May 3 2020 19:23:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

lol, looks like you have a hater who rushed to downvote that video [:D]
watched it when there was 6 views on the counter and someone had downvoted it [8D]


My subscribers don’t like this educational crap. They want entertainment damn it!



canteytoque1 -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (May 3 2020 20:09:16)

If you guys are talking about tempo, as in expansion and contraction of the compás with all beats, Domingo Rubichi plays that way, too (see YouTube videos with Antonio Agujetas). I hear it in the accompaniment of Montoya, Melchor and Morao (viejo). I usually don't like any alteration of tempo except for going a little faster at the end, but the way the aforementioned guitarists make their accompaniment breathe gets the best results, in my opinion.



Ricardo -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (May 3 2020 22:11:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: canteytoque1

If you guys are talking about tempo, as in expansion and contraction of the compás with all beats, Domingo Rubichi plays that way, too (see YouTube videos with Antonio Agujetas). I hear it in the accompaniment of Montoya, Melchor and Morao (viejo). I usually don't like any alteration of tempo except for going a little faster at the end, but the way the aforementioned guitarists make their accompaniment breathe gets the best results, in my opinion.


Yes that’s it. As usual the question was quite general, but I knew the guy positing had made a nice transcription of Talega, so I decided give everyone a giant headache by going into specifics.

Funny how I get copyright strikes for clapping along to music excerpts. What the hell ever happened to “fair use” clauses?



canteytoque1 -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (May 3 2020 22:52:29)

I’m going to say the first thing you said to me on this forum: Who’s the cante nerd now? :-) Ole tu afición y la de todos ustedes.



chester -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (May 4 2020 2:55:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

lol, looks like you have a hater who rushed to downvote that video [:D]
watched it when there was 6 views on the counter and someone had downvoted it [8D]


My subscribers don’t like this educational crap. They want entertainment damn it!

It was me. Every morning I go on every video in ricardo's channel and ask the i ching if i should down vote it.



Ricardo -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (May 4 2020 13:58:06)

quote:

Who’s the cante nerd now?


I prefer guitar monk, because cante is too cool to be nerdy.[;)]

Check this study and our discussion in case you missed it:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=324856&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1



Stu -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (May 4 2020 15:09:24)

quote:

lol, looks like you have a hater who rushed to downvote that video


Maybe it was a plasterer or builder who couldn't handle the ceiling hole!? hah[;)]



mark indigo -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (May 4 2020 21:36:15)

quote:

As you can see he likes to accelerate the conclusions of the two compas phrases.



thanks for the vid, I have watched/listened a few times over, I am going to have to study it some more, I am still not getting the end of the 3rd compas and first half of the 4th, it just seems to float around your palmas!

I think I just can't hear the pulse/beat with the combination of space and elastication.

I am fine with hearing something like Cuando Canta el Gallo or Barrio La Viña where it's more or less continuous 3 or 4 notes per beat and the tempo gently rises and falls, or speeds up more in the picado runs. Or other things of Vicente like Maestro Sanlucar or Reino de Silia of Vicente where there is space, but palmas/percusion accompaniment keeping a steady pulse.

I will listen some more, thanks again.



Ricardo -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (May 5 2020 0:32:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

As you can see he likes to accelerate the conclusions of the two compas phrases.



thanks for the vid, I have watched/listened a few times over, I am going to have to study it some more, I am still not getting the end of the 3rd compas and first half of the 4th, it just seems to float around your palmas!

I think I just can't hear the pulse/beat with the combination of space and elastication.

I am fine with hearing something like Cuando Canta el Gallo or Barrio La Viña where it's more or less continuous 3 or 4 notes per beat and the tempo gently rises and falls, or speeds up more in the picado runs. Or other things of Vicente like Maestro Sanlucar or Reino de Silia of Vicente where there is space, but palmas/percusion accompaniment keeping a steady pulse.

I will listen some more, thanks again.


You can slow my video down ... it’s mostly 16th notes so keep track of em. The third compas has a rise and fall accent before and after 3, 6, 9. So that last phrase throws your ear. &ah8e&ah NINE e&ah 10e&ah 11e&..(rest). Then start on 1 (4th compas) track 16th notes to the count 4 D string bass note (I am already getting behind him there) then he accelerates and that is where it gets hard to track ...6 is the high note and he really pushes after that then 10 is remate that he slows down right away. 6th compas same deal, he runs away from me and I catch up.

Also the golpes llamada he is slowing down so I’m not slowing down exactly perfectly coming from the previous compas that was sped up. However it should still be clear how those golpes are coming in as contras. For the most part he is fairly even tempo wise IMO, I could take time to give metronome marks, but I thought clapping along was faster, and you can see in real time how he is stretching things.



devilhand -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (Jul. 1 2020 13:23:16)

Juan Maya Marote accompanying Fernanda de Utrera. I guess there's another rubato playing going on there at 0:00-0:19. Anyone?

Another thing is he repeats beats 6-12 two times at 0:00-0:06. Or is it still full 12 beat compas?




Ricardo -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (Jul. 1 2020 17:50:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

Juan Maya Marote accompanying Fernanda de Utrera. I guess there's another rubato playing going on there at 0:00-0:19. Anyone?

Another thing is he repeats beats 6-12 two times at 0:00-0:06. Or is it still full 12 beat compas?




Blocked in USA. Probably yes to both.



devilhand -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (Jul. 1 2020 19:07:16)

I just edited the link in my post above. The previous youtube link doesn't work on another website.



Ricardo -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (Jul. 1 2020 23:46:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

I just edited the link in my post above. The previous youtube link doesn't work on another website.



While it’s not metronomic it is not very elastic either... at least not like the Vicente example. I would not say it’s Rubato honestly. And yes phrases in 6’s that repeat in even groupings are meant to add up to 12. Half compas situations manifest as a result of odd groupings of 6 count phrases. Both would be considered “in compas”, however, the even 6s that add to neat 12 counts are considered “cuadrao” which means squared.



devilhand -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (Jul. 4 2020 12:35:12)

quote:

While it’s not metronomic it is not very elastic either... at least not like the Vicente example. I would not say it’s Rubato honestly. And yes phrases in 6’s that repeat in even groupings are meant to add up to 12. Half compas situations manifest as a result of odd groupings of 6 count phrases. Both would be considered “in compas”, however, the even 6s that add to neat 12 counts are considered “cuadrao” which means squared.

You're being diplomatic and writing it's not metronomic. I would say Juan Marote is a bit out of compas there.

Talking about cuadrao, what if one plays the same phrase 4 times in 3/4 time? Each phrase lasts one bar. So we still have full 12 beat compas. I don't know if such compas can exist in flamenco. If it exists, what would we call it?



Ricardo -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (Jul. 5 2020 17:50:05)

quote:

You're being diplomatic and writing it's not metronomic. I would say Juan Marote is a bit out of compas there.


I think you are rhythmically challenged to the point your opinions and perceptions about what you are hearing are dangerously inhibiting your ability to advance. You need one on one instruction as soon as possible.



mark indigo -> RE: opinions about rubato playing? (Jul. 10 2020 17:19:15)

just catching up on some recent threads i read this

quote:

I would say Juan Marote is a bit out of compas there.


what? I need to read that again

quote:

I would say Juan Marote is a bit out of compas there.


did he really say that?

quote:

I would say Juan Marote is a bit out of compas there.


yes he did - words fail me....

these are also hopelessly inadequate [&:][8|]



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