Help with Juan Talega Solea accompamient (Full Version)

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johnnefastis -> Help with Juan Talega Solea accompamient (Feb. 7 2020 10:47:44)

Hi All,

Just struggling a little with trying to accompany this beautiful solea. I get it until 1:20 and then he starts singing "se la voy a contar a la tierra" on the 6 1/2 beat

From there it does a typical G7 to C progression as if he had started on 12 1/2. But I can't work out how to interpret it. Is it best to consider that he has started on 6 1/2 and carry on with the compas or just learn to take half a compas in and out to make it all fit.

Hope that makes sense

Any help appreciated.

Cheers




Ricardo -> RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea accompamient (Feb. 7 2020 11:56:12)

In addition to several examples to practice the concept in the cante accompaniment thread (see all solea or solea por bulerias examples I did),
I found a transcription of your exact letra performance by carol Whitney:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=315076&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=carol%2Cwhitney&tmode=&smode=&s=#315087



johnnefastis -> RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea accompamient (Feb. 7 2020 12:59:50)

Ah thank you Ricardo.

I know there is so much here. I can't always find it.
Just looking your posts tha that deal with the medio compas thing I mentioned in solea.

Do you mean in this thread?
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=124692&mpage=27&p=2&tmode=1&smode=1&key=



Ricardo -> RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea accompamient (Feb. 7 2020 14:15:49)

Each of these have the naked cante versions you can practice with in that thread, go to page 1 and look at the table of contents Florian put up.
Please note the half compas or non-12 singing phrases and how I delt with them in each example:





I remember there was also moneo different version I do on page 10 both in por medio and por Arriba.

As a general rule, when things feel crossed, you put G7 on count 10 (por Arriba), then mark clearly the next compas counts 1-2-3 with G7-G7-C, then resolve 7-10 with normal F to E. Continue the next compas with “normal” compas as if there is no singing, even though the singer is finishing lyrics of the final line there.



Ricardo -> RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea accompamient (Feb. 8 2020 17:43:08)

I realized that the transcription I showed was not complete, and the part you asked about was there too:





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johnnefastis -> RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea accompamient (Feb. 9 2020 20:05:47)

quote:

As a general rule, when things feel crossed, you put G7 on count 10 (por Arriba), then mark clearly the next compas counts 1-2-3 with G7-G7-C, then resolve 7-10 with normal F to E. Continue the next compas with “normal” compas as if there is no singing, even though the singer is finishing lyrics of the final line there.


Thanks Ricardo!!!

The bit above was especially useful it does exactly this on the line "el sentio te desvaria".... (2:05) I need to spend a bit more time going through your videos too. Turned out the singer I practiced with could start the letra on 6 or 12 so we made it work in a few different ways. Pretty much there. Will upload some audio soon.

Thats some serious transcribing btw I made a rough start on this just to catch the skeleton structure of it.



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Steelhead -> RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea accompamient (Apr. 21 2020 14:22:25)

If anyone is interested I did my own transcription of this item (not necessarily better than Ricardo's!). I also published an article analyzing it a while back, at: https://academicworks.cuny.edu/jj_pubs/305/





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johnnefastis -> RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea accompamient (Jan. 9 2021 13:37:21)

Just saw this from the other other thread. Didn't catch that before. Thats awesome thanks for sharing Steelhead



johnnefastis -> RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea accompamient (May 15 2021 11:28:42)

Finally got to meet with a singer again and work through this. I realised I had completly over complicated it for myself by taking analysing the detail of the guitar and not the melody of the singing. To ammend that I just had these notes which I basically grabbed from Normans site. I knew that AB sections go to the Am and back and the CD sections to G7 and then the macho letras hold onto Am for longer before hitting G7 etc.

I appreciate the hard work of analysing the music to the extent of scoring the whole piece, but I found this really useful in practical context. One A4 sheet I could glance at and check the overall structure of the piece. Anyone else make notes like these? Would love to hear what other details you add.


Letra 1- cantes de inicio - Joaquín de la Paula
A ¿A quién le contaré yo
B la fatiguillita que estoy pasando
C se la voy a contar a la tierra
D cuando me estén enterrando

AB-AB-CD-CD

Letra 2 – macho hold onto Am for longer then G7 C and resolve
A Que no me querias
B cuando alante tu me tienes
C el sentio te desvaria

ABC

Letra 3
A Dices que tu a mi no me quieres
B pena yo no tengo ninguna
C porque yo con tu querer
D no tenia hecha escritura

AB-BB-CD

Letra 4 cante based on la Serneta 1 melody?
A a ti nadie te quiera
B ven que yo a ti te querre
C el daño que me hiciste
D yo te lo recompensare

ABCD

Letra 5 – macho hold onto Am for longer then G7 C and resolve
Que no me quieria...

Major letra to end.. two compasses like alegrias speeding up the tempo.
Ay que te quiero
y tu no lo sabes
tu eres la causa
de todos mis males



Ricardo -> RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea accompamient (May 16 2021 20:18:14)

Letra 1 is actually ABBBCDCD.

Letra 2, you don’t necessarily hold Am longer...best to change on 10 as normal. What happens musically with this style and almost all other ABC letras is actually A, skip B musically, (the return to E melodically) then CD, which can also repeat. So B is omitted musically. So of course ABC means that A and C rhyme where as B and D rhyme with 4 line verse. But for the accompanist it is important to understand regardless if A repeats that we skip down to the cambio for the B line verse. Also the zero verse extension can be added to the B line of verse without hurting the rhyme pattern (see buleria larga).

Letra 3, this is Andonda 1.

Letra 4, this is based on Serneta 1, but not exactly correct as he doesn’t reach up as high as the C note. This is his own personal creation, and is attributed to “juan Talega” himself.

Letra 5, it is unusual for a cantaor to repeat himself in a single performance. It gives a false impression of an “estribillo” or repeating chorus. I don’t call this style a “macho”, rather reserve that title for Joaquin 3 and similar styles. Joaquin 2 (this style) is referred to is a cante de transicion. Carol Whitney’s article calls this letra the “cambio”, and she makes a point to distinguish the term from the actual G7-C cadence.

Hope that helps a little. Cante accompaniment thread has some good stuff you should try.



johnnefastis -> RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea accompamient (May 17 2021 0:38:28)

Hi Ricardo,

Thats super useful thanks! I will change and add stuff. I have been delving back into the accompiament thread.. there is so much there... I have been working on the Miguel Povedas de buen aire for ages so must upload that soon.

quote:

Letra 2, you don’t necessarily hold Am longer...best to change on 10 as normal.......


This is really useful. I hadn't thought of it like that. I will go away and study some more :)

Thanks again



johnnefastis -> RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea accompamient (May 21 2021 21:54:17)

Interesting to watch the first letra sung slower here.




Ricardo -> RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea accompamient (May 22 2021 16:34:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnnefastis

Interesting to watch the first letra sung slower here.




I wonder how aficionados of cante feel about his delivery of that melody. From what I have learned the classic way to do Joaquin 1 is different....Talega and many other old singers normally deliver 5 syllables in a row with notes B E E E E.....it is very distinct. What Cigala is doing is more like Serneta except he does not climb up to C on the first line, ending on G# more or less like Joaquin, but he does hit C on the second line like serneta. It is a mixture of the two styles IMO, and I am curious how aficionados view it, whether it is in good taste or not to do that, and how deliberate is it?

Perhaps this type of mixture is how the various styles were created to begin with...but then what constitutes “purity” for each style?



johnnefastis -> RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea accompamient (May 22 2021 22:07:18)

Yeah interesting I wonder? I don't know enough about how singers decide to change traditional melodies. I think I prefer the original Talega melody.

I don't know this singer wel but like this version about a 2:30 in shame he seems to be suffering from a cold.




Ricardo -> RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea accompamient (May 23 2021 16:37:01)

quote:

but like this version about a 2:30


Closer, but he also breaks the 5 syllables at the start into 3 plus 2 connected to the rest. And the repeat he does 4 syllables. Also the entire thing is nice and cuadrao. The purist in me doesn’t like it as much as mairena/Pavon/Talega versions that seem to adhere to a set structure/ concept about delivery.



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