What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Full Version)

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devilhand -> What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 27 2019 17:02:10)

What makes PdL great?

I haven't listened to him that much. My untrained ears can't distinguish his greatness from others.
How's his compas? As precise as metronome? I read a lot that his technique is out of this world.

Could you guys demonstrate it with audios or videos on youtube? A comparison with others would be great.

Thank you!!!



Dudnote -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 27 2019 17:30:10)

Technique and compas were just the beginning. It was his historical importance as a composer and performer that really nailed it. No one else in the history of flamenco has come close in terms of constantly reinventing their approach and repertoire. For flamenco guitar, he was the revolution, for cante Camaron was. Almost everyone was copying these guys. If you listen to flamenco from the 1920's up until this day you should come to see that the 1970's really was a turning point. Try working through his disks in chronological order...

...this thread can help.
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=253824&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=discography



Piwin -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 27 2019 18:33:17)

quote:

Could you guys demonstrate it with audios or videos on youtube?


Sure:



mark indigo -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 27 2019 18:37:43)

quote:

What makes PdL great?


where to start with replying to this....?

Can't find the thread I'm looking for (searched "Paco de Lucia" and it didn't come up so maybe it had a different title...) so I will just bung in a couple of list from the discografia

SOLO ALBUMS
La Fabulosa Guitarra 1967 PHILIPS 843 139 PY
Fantasia Flamenca 1969 PHILIPS 843 198 PY
Recital de Guitarra 1971 PHILIPS 63 28 036
El Duende Flamenco 1972 PHILIPS 63 28 061
Fuente Y Caudal 1973 PHILIPS 91 13 109
En Vivo Desde el Teatro Real 1975 PHILIPS 91 13 001
Almoraima 1976 PHILIPS 63 28 199
Interpreta a Manuel de Falla 1978 PHILIPS 91 13 008
Solo Quiero Caminar 1981 PHILIPS 63 01 030
Castro Marin 1981 PHILIPS 63 01 025
One Summer night 1984 MERCURY MERL 52
Siroco 1987 MERCURY 830 913-1
Zyryab 1990 PHILIPS 846 707 2
Concierto de Aranjuez 1991 PHILIPS 510 301
Live in America (Double LP) 1993 PHILIPS 518 809-1
Live in America (CD) 1993 PHILIPS 518 809-2
Luzia 1998 MERCURY 558 165-2
Cositas Buenas 2003 UNIVERSAL 0602498660669
En Vivo Conciertos España 2010 2011 UNIVERSAL 0602527908038
Canción Andaluza 2014 UNIVERSAL 0602537814923

WITH CAMARON DE LA ISLA
(The first 3 albums and the 5th were untitled but are known today by the name of the first track)
Al Verte las Flores Lloren 1969 PHILIPS 58 65 026
Cada vez que nos Miramos 1970 PHILIPS 63 28 004
Son tus ojos dos Estrellas 1971 PHILIPS 63 28 021
Canastera 1972 PHILIPS 63 28 076
Caminito de Totana 1973 PHILIPS 63 28 100
Soy Caminante 1974 PHILIPS 63 28 130
Arte y Majestad 1975 PHILIPS 63 28 166
Disco de Oro 1976 PHILIPS 63 28 190
Rosa Maria 1976 PHILIPS 63 28 191
Castillo de Arena 1977 PHILIPS 63 28 225
Como el Agua 1981 PHILIPS 63 01 035
Calle Real 1983 PHILIPS 814 466 1
Vivire 1984 PHILIPS 822 719
Quejio 1984 PHILIPS
Autoretrato 1990 PHILIPS
Potro de Rabia y Miel 1992 PHILIPS 512 408 1

quote:

I haven't listened to him that much. My untrained ears can't distinguish his greatness from others.

when you've listened to the whole list above a couple of times each, compare the recording dates with the "others".



mark indigo -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 27 2019 18:44:13)

quote:

What makes PdL great?


still can't find the one i was looking for, but take a look at this one

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=36852&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=paco&tmode=&smode=&s=#36854



RobF -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 27 2019 21:43:38)

quote:

quote:

Could you guys demonstrate it with audios or videos on youtube?

Sure:



Piwin, I hardly think it’s fair for you to be posting something of this complexity in response to a request for introductory materials. Why, very few players on this Foro, save myself and perhaps Ricardo, can even come close to playing at that level of sophistication, and I’m not even sure about Ricardo.

Perhaps post something a little more accessible?



Ricardo -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 28 2019 16:43:26)

This topic came up before he died. I recommend “light and shade” a documentary from 1994 to get a brief over view of his role in flamenco and guitar generally.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=229326&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=paco%2Cde%2Clucia%2Chistory&tmode=&smode=&s=#229326



makanakijones -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 28 2019 17:16:49)

He was great because nobody had to ask why he was great.



Escribano -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 28 2019 19:14:59)

quote:

He was great because nobody had to ask why he was great.


Yep



mt1007 -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 28 2019 21:37:58)

Devil Hand,

Bro you got to do your homework. I don't know if you're trolling or being sincere in various threads. A lot of cats have replied and helped in your posts, questions, etc… Asking what makes Paco great…. How did you get into flamenco guitar? Man you got the web at your disposal for research, you want a Beato video? Man, handle your business….

Peace out….



RobF -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 28 2019 23:04:46)

It’s not so much that he was great, he was the greatest, IMO. He was far more than technically brilliant, he was musically brilliant. He was inspirational.

It’s kind of like learning how to appreciate Scotch. It takes some exposure and time to learn to sort out the flavours and come to appreciate the nuances.

Start slow...his body of work is enormous, so attempting to assimilate it all at once is probably too heavy a meal. Better to start with smaller portions and savour each serving. There’s a lot to enjoy and I envy you being able to discover this fresh.

It might be a good idea to choose a couple of earlier works from the lists Mark posted and absorb them before moving on to others. One solo and one with Camarón. Maybe try his “Almoraima” (1976) and “Canastera” (1972) with Camarón. Either of those will give huge enjoyment and should answer your question.



tele -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 29 2019 13:35:17)

It's kind of a mystery that he didn't have gypsy blood, since majority of the great flamenco guitarists seem to have at least a bit of it.



Escribano -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 29 2019 16:51:25)

Practising nine hours a day, every day and hanging out in the peña from a young age could have something to do with it.



Echi -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 30 2019 0:43:21)

As Simon said plus an innate talent and a father who like a hard taskmaster pushed Paco since he was a kid.



szvarga -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 30 2019 10:32:50)

quote:

My untrained ears can't distinguish his greatness from others.


That is exactly the point, I think. Not the ears, trained or not. In 2019 you can't differentiate his playing above most of the recent flamenco guitar players.

But not because HE plays in the way like everybody else, but EVERYBODY ELSE plays like the way he plays. Can you imagine it? What a genius must one be, to affect generations of players of an entire music genre?

And because through his career he revolutionized virtually all aspects of flamenco guitar playing, when you listen to players in these times, one way or other, you listen to him.

The difference you looking for, isn't exists. It's all him.

Sz



Piwin -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 30 2019 11:05:44)

quote:

Perhaps post something a little more accessible?


alright, alright. Here's an easy one to play:



devilhand -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 30 2019 16:39:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

What makes PdL great?


still can't find the one i was looking for, but take a look at this one

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=36852&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=paco&tmode=&smode=&s=#36854


Thanks for the link. It was interesting to read. I guess Mr Marlow is the one who can say a lot about Paco's technical abilities.

quote:

Devil Hand,

Bro you got to do your homework. I don't know if you're trolling or being sincere in various threads. A lot of cats have replied and helped in your posts, questions, etc… Asking what makes Paco great…. How did you get into flamenco guitar? Man you got the web at your disposal for research, you want a Beato video? Man, handle your business….

Peace out….


I didn't ask who is PdL. My question is worth asking if you want to dive deeper into analyzing his techniques and abilities.
I do believe you have to judge a virtouso by his technical abilities.

I'm less interested in what he achieved. Because the end product is visible and everyone can read it on internet. Correct me if I'm worng. Paco paved the way for flamenco jazz fusion, which is not my cup of tea. The Guitar Trio project is to me a musical nonsense. Flamenco Jazz Fusion sounds like fakemenco with no soul. If flamenco was like this, I would not be here in this forum.



Piwin -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 30 2019 17:18:03)

quote:

I haven't listened to him that much. My untrained ears


Maybe solve that first?



BarkellWH -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 30 2019 17:42:47)

quote:

Correct me if I'm worng. Paco paved the way for flamenco jazz fusion, which is not my cup of tea.


Paco has collaborated with some jazz greats such as Chick Corea, which I enjoyed and viewed as two musical greats getting together. My admiration for Paco began to diminish, however, when he began experimenting, not with other musical greats, but by adding instruments to his own group. I attended a couple of concerts where Paco had more an "ensemble" rather than a flamenco group, an ensemble that included a bass guitar and a harmonica. It didn't do much for me, but that was probably a reflection of my basic love of more "traditional" flamenco, as exemplified by Sabicas.

Bill



mrstwinkle -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 30 2019 20:37:44)

quote:

My admiration for Paco began to diminish, however, when he began experimenting, not with other musical greats, but by adding instruments to his own group. I attended a couple of concerts where Paco had more an "ensemble" rather than a flamenco group, an ensemble that included a bass guitar and a harmonica. It didn't do much for me, but that was probably a reflection of my basic love of more "traditional" flamenco, as exemplified by Sabicas.


I only got into flamenco well after fhis death, so looking at the whole thing retrospectively. However the anti-ensemble thing is pretty much what I feel too. And the jazz improvisation stuff simply does nothing for me - but I'm not a jazz fan. BUT I'll forgive anything for the man who wrote and played Almoraima and Llanto A Cadiz.

I think if you need to be sold on Paco, try the album La fabulosa guitara de Paco de Lucia as a starting point.



Ricardo -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 30 2019 20:50:10)

quote:

Paco paved the way for flamenco jazz fusion, which is not my cup of tea. The Guitar Trio project is to me a musical nonsense. Flamenco Jazz Fusion sounds like fakemenco with no soul.


Wow! This is very very very very very very very very very very interesting! What a unique view point about it. I don’t think I have a EVER encountered such an opinion. I am so so so so so extremely curious could there actually be ANYBODY and I mean ANYBODY at all on foro or any where else on this Earth with a similar opinion??? I really want to hear more about this, this is just..... SHOCKING to me!!!! I am at a TOTAL loss for words over this. Please someone expound on this idea about this jazz flamenco fusion and how it could possibly be unpalatable, I really need to understand more about this! Also if more can be said about the “farting” electric bass and saxophone flamenco lines I would really like to hear about that too.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 30 2019 22:26:22)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Also if more can be said about the “farting” electric bass and saxophone flamenco lines I would really like to hear about that too.


No farting, but here's the flamenco saxophone you were asking about.



RNJ



BarkellWH -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 30 2019 22:50:31)

quote:

...here's the flamenco saxophone you were asking about.


I have a double CD album entitled, "Ramon Montoya: El Genio De La Guitarra Flamenca, Grabaciones Historicas 1923-1936."

several of the pieces have Fernando Vilches accompanying on the saxophone. As much as I admire montoya, in my opinion the addition of the sax does nothing for it.

Bill



szvarga -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Nov. 30 2019 23:10:49)

quote:

Flamenco Jazz Fusion sounds like fakemenco with no soul


Hmm... I never felt, if a music genre founds connection to jazz, the latter kills the soul of the former (talking about a level of musical taste of course). Rather I mostly feels it adds a great deal of intellect.

Hmm...

Sz



cantejondo38 -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Dec. 1 2019 2:36:45)

Paco de Loochia was great because he played with his fingers and composed "La Plaswella".



Piwin -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Dec. 1 2019 15:45:31)

quote:

La Plaswella


The rasgwados in that piece are amazing.



mark indigo -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Dec. 1 2019 17:18:36)

quote:

I didn't ask who is PdL. My question is worth asking if you want to dive deeper into analyzing his techniques and abilities.
I do believe you have to judge a virtouso by his technical abilities.

I'm less interested in what he achieved. Because the end product is visible and everyone can read it on internet. Correct me if I'm worng. Paco paved the way for flamenco jazz fusion, which is not my cup of tea. The Guitar Trio project is to me a musical nonsense. Flamenco Jazz Fusion sounds like fakemenco with no soul. If flamenco was like this, I would not be here in this forum.


Leaving aside the "issue" of playing with Mclaughlin et al these are all pre-that era:

SOLO ALBUMS
La Fabulosa Guitarra 1967 PHILIPS 843 139 PY
Fantasia Flamenca 1969 PHILIPS 843 198 PY
Recital de Guitarra 1971 PHILIPS 63 28 036
El Duende Flamenco 1972 PHILIPS 63 28 061
Fuente Y Caudal 1973 PHILIPS 91 13 109
En Vivo Desde el Teatro Real 1975 PHILIPS 91 13 001
Almoraima 1976 PHILIPS 63 28 199

WITH CAMARON DE LA ISLA
(The first 3 albums and the 5th were untitled but are known today by the name of the first track)
Al Verte las Flores Lloren 1969 PHILIPS 58 65 026
Cada vez que nos Miramos 1970 PHILIPS 63 28 004
Son tus ojos dos Estrellas 1971 PHILIPS 63 28 021
Canastera 1972 PHILIPS 63 28 076
Caminito de Totana 1973 PHILIPS 63 28 100
Soy Caminante 1974 PHILIPS 63 28 130
Arte y Majestad 1975 PHILIPS 63 28 166

Compare to pretty much anything else in that era - no contest.



devilhand -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Dec. 2 2019 16:05:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

I didn't ask who is PdL. My question is worth asking if you want to dive deeper into analyzing his techniques and abilities.
I do believe you have to judge a virtouso by his technical abilities.

I'm less interested in what he achieved. Because the end product is visible and everyone can read it on internet. Correct me if I'm worng. Paco paved the way for flamenco jazz fusion, which is not my cup of tea. The Guitar Trio project is to me a musical nonsense. Flamenco Jazz Fusion sounds like fakemenco with no soul. If flamenco was like this, I would not be here in this forum.


Leaving aside the "issue" of playing with Mclaughlin et al these are all pre-that era:

SOLO ALBUMS
La Fabulosa Guitarra 1967 PHILIPS 843 139 PY
Fantasia Flamenca 1969 PHILIPS 843 198 PY
Recital de Guitarra 1971 PHILIPS 63 28 036
El Duende Flamenco 1972 PHILIPS 63 28 061
Fuente Y Caudal 1973 PHILIPS 91 13 109
En Vivo Desde el Teatro Real 1975 PHILIPS 91 13 001
Almoraima 1976 PHILIPS 63 28 199

WITH CAMARON DE LA ISLA
(The first 3 albums and the 5th were untitled but are known today by the name of the first track)
Al Verte las Flores Lloren 1969 PHILIPS 58 65 026
Cada vez que nos Miramos 1970 PHILIPS 63 28 004
Son tus ojos dos Estrellas 1971 PHILIPS 63 28 021
Canastera 1972 PHILIPS 63 28 076
Caminito de Totana 1973 PHILIPS 63 28 100
Soy Caminante 1974 PHILIPS 63 28 130
Arte y Majestad 1975 PHILIPS 63 28 166

Compare to pretty much anything else in that era - no contest.


Thanks for your suggestion. Just looked at my music library and found almost all of the Paco's albums.



JasonM -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Dec. 2 2019 17:32:13)

Bill, this ensemble heard about you and would like to flash mob your front lawn and play Zyryab [:D]




AndresK -> RE: What makes Paco de Lucia great? (Dec. 9 2019 6:51:59)

Well, it is quite amazing that up to this day, people saying they are interested in flamenco have something "bad" to say about Francisco Sanchez Gomez (watch that documentary too, it is great!)

You know that back when Paco was making all these changes to the music that now belongs to the whole world, and not just to the people of Spain, he was discussed over in the Spanish parliament as his was making flamenco "dirty". He was even assaulted and hit hard on the street for that.

Just a few years before he died I went to a concert of his in Athens with my wife and some friends. It was just magic. Music was the only thing there, no more, no less. After the concert of a legend that he was, and always will be, I saw a classical guitarist outside, around his fifties. He was saying to his company of other musicians that what everyone heard was not flamenco by any means and that Paco should not do this.

It was a concert with his group with the cositas buenas music where thousands, including that judging guy came to see.

That day I understood that it doesn't matter how hard you try, it doesn't matter how good, honest and sincere you are about what you do, there will always be someone there with an arguement about the opposite. It is the nature of the human mind, finding arguements about anything in the universe.

In the sincere way of the heart the mind stands still, shows the way, and acknowledges. The heart knows, the mind just shows.

Keep playing, listening and enjoying music.

Saludos!

Andres



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