What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Full Version)

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docco -> What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 20 2019 19:05:42)




kitarist -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 20 2019 19:56:11)

Maybe they are on different planes, so the concept of a border does not apply.

BTW, that's a Torres 1892 guitar - SE153. He could not complete it (fell ill and died that same year), so it was completed by Miguel Moya.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 20 2019 21:48:20)

The border between the City of Austin where I live, and the adjacent City of Round Rock is perfectly clear, accurately surveyed and posted. This is important, because it determines to whom we pay taxes, and which laws we must obey.

The border between Central Texas and South Texas is much more diffuse and indistinct. Culturally it is somewhere south of New Braunfels. North of this "border" the culture is distinctively "Anglo": English speaking strongly influenced by a long history of white settlement. San Antonio was founded by the Spanish, was an important Mexican town before Texas independence, and is now at least 60% Latino ethnically.

On the other hand, the Balcones fault and the Edwards Plateau to the west of it are important geological features of both San Antonio and Austin. South of San Antonio, you are south of these features. Where you draw the border depends upon the criteria used to judge it, and has a much smaller practical effect than political borders.

The border between classical and flamenco is a cultural one. Carulli and Sor are classical, Niño Ricardo and Paco de Lucia are flamenco. Where you draw the border depends upon which criteria you use.

Arcas's Soleá doesn't conform exactly to the prevailing modern flamenco definition due to differences in compás, key signature and guitar tuning. We really don't know exactly how soleá was defined by flamencos at the time (no later than 1867) when Arcas wrote his piece. Nor can you draw a precise line between 20th century "old school" and "new style" soleá.

RNJ



Piwin -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 21 2019 10:40:10)

Some years ago, I was practicing Sabicas's "Zapateado in Re" waiting for the teacher to arrive. When he finally arrived, he said "Piwin, menos tonterias, mas flamenco". I took that to mean that he didn't consider that particular piece to be flamenco. Or perhaps it was my way of playing it that wasn't flamenco.



Ricardo -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 21 2019 14:17:06)

The answer simply is rasgueados.
For this reason a piece such as Guajiras de Lucia has classical flavor outside of conventional Guajiras and is attractive to classical guitarists wanting to dabble in flamenco territory (Elliot Fisk for example). Conversely the rare example of rasgueado used in classical music, Rodrigo concierto, has been an attractive challenge for ambitious flamenco guitarists.

I question whether Flamencos picked up on some of arcas arpegio figures (Marin method of 1902 suggests this), or if it was the exact opposite. No way to know for sure, but regardless, Arcas is not doing enough rasgueado to be confused for flamenco proper.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 21 2019 20:49:37)

There are exceptions to almost any single criterion for differentiating flamenco and "classical." Rasgueo is one such criterion.

(The word "classical" has at least two meanings. One refers to a particular period in the history of European art music, another includes just about all European art music, the genre associated with the aristocracy and ruling class.)

Santiago de Murcia (1673-1739) was Master of Guitar to the Queen of Spain, Maria Luisa de Savoy. This puts him squarely in the European art music ("classical') genre. Santiago's Fandango is one of the earliest documented examples.

Most authorities agree that flamenco didn't originate before the 19th century. The pre-existing form of fandango was aflamencado and became a major part of flamenco repertoire.



The rasgueados here are not executed with today's prevailing technique, flicking the fingertips against the thumb or palm, but I'm here to tell you that there were a lot of flamencos in my youth who played rasgueados pretty much the way Maiorena does.

RNJ



Ricardo -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 21 2019 23:49:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

There are exceptions to almost any single criterion for differentiating flamenco and "classical." Rasgueo is one such criterion.

(The word "classical" has at least two meanings. One refers to a particular period in the history of European art music, another includes just about all European art music, the genre associated with the aristocracy and ruling class.)

Santiago de Murcia (1673-1739) was Master of Guitar to the Queen of Spain, Maria Luisa de Savoy. This puts him squarely in the European art music ("classical') genre. Santiago's Fandango is one of the earliest documented examples.

Most authorities agree that flamenco didn't originate before the 19th century. The pre-existing form of fandango was aflamencado and bcame a major part of flamenco repertoire.



The rasgueados here are not executed with today's prevailing technique, flicking the fingertips against the thumb or palm, but I'm here to tell you that there were a lot of flamencos in my youth who played rasgueados pretty much the way Maiorena does.

RNJ

Gaspar Sanz has up and down strokes notated in his 1697 book, but we have no clue how those are played. This guy’s Fandangos interpretation is as good as mine would be... meaning we interpret rasgueado how ever we want. The fandango form has nothing in common with the above piece, anymore than Argentine tango has commonality with flamenco tango.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 22 2019 0:14:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
the fandango form has nothing in common with the above piece,


Part of my intended point....

RNJ



docco -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 22 2019 0:20:32)

Rasgueado is a technique originally derived from classical music and later is used much in flamenco. While rasguedo is favored by Flamenco's guitarists, it is no longer used in classical guitarists' performances, perhaps by the influence of Andre Segovia, who considers it a noisy technique.
The technique, the way to perform music, can not be considered as a character of the music. Therefore, it can not be used to distinguish a genre of music to others, such as flamenco vs classical music.
What I want to pay attention to is their harmony.



Piwin -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 22 2019 1:00:03)

quote:

The technique, the way to perform music, can not be considered as a character of the music


Why not?



docco -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 22 2019 2:50:38)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

The technique, the way to perform music, can not be considered as a character of the music


Why not?

For example, Latin music has rhythm with clave but we can not say Latin music is distinguished with the clave, but we can say that Latin music is distinguished by multi-rhythm and syncopation, and clave is only the tool to perform these characteristics.
We can see how great Latin music is with multi-rhythm and syncopation, while how great classical music with its harmony. About Asian music maybe great in melody.
And I still enjoy flamenco music with both multi-rhythm and harmony.



Piwin -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 22 2019 4:28:40)

Isn't the real question how did Spanish guitar make it up the rungs to be considered "classical" in the first place? In the end what those terms really mean is just "music played for the elite" vs. "music played for the rabble".



Ricardo -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 22 2019 12:49:00)

What I was getting at was the guy was adding more flamenco to it than would have been done. Do rasgueados evolve out of baroque guitar technique? Sure I have no problem with that. We have the clear divergence between classical and flamenco only by Segovia’s time. But who borrowed from whom is only conjecture imo. Here is the fandango score, hardly any flamenco strumming like the guy was doing:



When I see this and hear interpretations I have to wonder whether or not this is not just a watered down Ottmar leibert type version of something more Sabicas ish that was never written down properly.



devilhand -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 22 2019 15:58:39)

quote:

The technique, the way to perform music, can not be considered as a character of the music. Therefore, it can not be used to distinguish a genre of music to others, such as flamenco vs classical music.
What I want to pay attention to is their harmony.


Rhythm is the most important feature that makes a certain type of music distinguishable to others. This is definitely not the case with harmony. For example, the same 7th chord can be played in different music styles. On the other hand, you cannot play, let's say a shuffle rhythm, in flamenco or reggae or funk.

As for technique, it's true to some degree because technique is just a tool. However, you cannot produce flamenco sound for example picado or alzapua with classical guitar technique. You will not sound flamenco.

Classical music uses complex harmony comparing to flamenco or pop/rock music. But this complexity lies in the rate of change in the harmony. That means in classical music harmony changes at a irregular rate and a bunch of chords are played in one measure. But harmony itself cannot be the feature that distinguishes classical music from flamenco.



etta -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 22 2019 17:39:41)

Though there are some similarities in technique, flamenco has its own specialized techniques such as rasqueados because basically flamenco is a different type of music. Essentially flamenco is a kind of jazz, yes, build around certain forms, but with plenty of room for improvisation and embellishment. For many of us it is most difficult to play the same piece over exactly as we have before; there is freedom to add, to take away, or to invent in our playing. This is one reason I enjoy it so much; it speaks powerfully to one's mood, energy, and improvisational skills. The classical player plays by the notes whether memorized or on paper; this seems to be the greatest difference between the two types. Generally speaking, classical is much more restrained in both music and technique.



kitarist -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 22 2019 18:32:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: docco
quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin
quote:

The technique, the way to perform music, can not be considered as a character of the music

Why not?

For example, Latin music has rhythm with clave but we can not say Latin music is distinguished with the clave, but we can say that Latin music is distinguished by multi-rhythm and syncopation, and clave is only the tool to perform these characteristics.



Well, you are just moving up categorically to the musical elements the particular distinguishing characteristics belong to. To do the same with rasgueado (by which is meant not the technique, but its musical outcome), we can then say flamenco is chiefly distinguished by particular tone colours and textures (such as that of rasgueado, and I would add golpe, alzapua). Also, possible examples of distinguishing harmonic characteristics would be the Andalusian cadence and the frequent use of a phrygian tonality.



docco -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 22 2019 19:39:54)

It was interesting to discuss with all of you and I learned a lot through these things.
In my opinion, Rasguedo makes Flamenco better and more distinguished but without it, Flamenco is still Flamenco. You can feel Flamenco via the below



So what is the core of Flamenco? If we think rascuedo is the main ingredient, then it's easy to make a lot of use in flamenco and turn flamenco into something else.

I can not understand why Flamenco is simpler than classical music, but sometimes it goes to the deepest of my soul.



mark indigo -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 22 2019 20:46:34)

quote:

What and where is the border of classical and flamenco


For some at least the definition of "flamenco" is cante. The difference between flamenco and classical then is that they are entirely different musical traditions: flamenco based on the cante; and classical based on western european church and court music.

The differences in technique on the guitar, and the discussion of the origin of rasgueado and picado etc. are either secondary to this or made irrelevant by this....

Also makes the old school/new school of flamenco guitar discussion kind of pointless as BOTH have borrowed harmony from other genres to accompany and embroider the cante.



Piwin -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 22 2019 21:19:12)

quote:

So what is the core of Flamenco?


Perhaps it would be useful to refer to your thread on flamenco as language.
What is the core of English?
What is the core of French?
What is the core of (insert whichever language you like)?

There doesn't seem to be much sense to the question. You can identify specific features of a language, none of which on its own will be unique to that language. You can even create larger groups of languages based on evolutionary proximity. But finding a "core" to one language doesn't work so well. Likewise in music. The very notion of "core" might be misguided here. Perhaps the identity of a given music, what makes it "it" and not an other, is a sum of diffuse factors and not any one thing perceived to be central to it.

If there absolutely had to be one, I'd say the core of flamenco is Andalucia.



BarkellWH -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 23 2019 5:43:25)

The question of what and where is the border between classical and flamenco assumes that each genre has rigidly defined characteristics with a well-defined border separating them. While there are certain characteristics that can be ascribed to each, I think, and many comments here seem to suggest, that an absolute definition cannot answer the question.

It brings to mind the 1964 opinion by United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart to describe his threshold test for obscenity in Jacobellis v. Ohio. In explaining why the material at issue in the case was not obscene under the Roth test, and therefore was protected speech that could not be censored, Stewart wrote: "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the material at issue is not that."

Perhaps that is the best we can hope to accomplish in attempting to answer the question posed by this thread.

Bill



Ricardo -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 23 2019 17:53:49)

quote:

In my opinion, Rasguedo makes Flamenco better and more distinguished but without it, Flamenco is still Flamenco. You can feel Flamenco via the below



Sorry but that is wrong. Rasgueado is at the heart of flamenco guitar, the specific way it is done and what it is expressing, without it the music leaves some ambiguity. The classical pieces don’t actually use it that I have ever heard, simple strumming is not the same thing. And finally, no the little girls piano playing is not making me hear or think flamenco. There is no form because there are no rasgueados to express it....it’s not because it’s a piano either. Diego Amador can do rasgueado on piano clearly because he understands how they are used to express the phrasing of the forms. A piece that she plays here is not based on form, it’s spanishy sounding impression of what a clueless composer thinks is flamenco.

Here is flamenco, rasgueado at :14, and a nice series of em at 1:33-1:48 for example. And the very end. That thing is not classical jazz or anything else.




etta -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 24 2019 16:18:21)

Interesting stuff Ricardo. But, it seems to me that you cannot have flamenco in any practical, accepted form without a flamenco guitar. The flamenco guitar, while many idioms of music can be played on it, is just as essential to flamenco music as a five string banjo is to bluegrass music. Admittedly, many flamenco players with talent and interests can play a variety of musical forms on the flamenco guitar just as Bela Fleck with his banjo can play any type of music.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 24 2019 18:44:22)

quote:

ORIGINAL: etta
Interesting stuff Ricardo. But, it seems to me that you cannot have flamenco in any practical, accepted form without a flamenco guitar.


I've been interested in flamenco for quite a while. I still play guitar daily except Sunday. About half the time it's flamenco, the rest classical, often on alternating days. It's an important part of my life.

But I can't remember the last time I listened to a solo flamenco guitar album. If I put on a CD to listen, it's cante. Yes, there is usually guitar accompaniment, but there's plenty of cante a palo seco. I think martinete, debla, etc. are unquestionably flamenco.

But maybe they are not practical or accepted?

Last month we went to Tablao Cordobés in Barcelona. The place was full. The show was almost entirely baile, very professional and polished. Paloma Fantova started off with a beautiful slow soleá. The rest was fast and loud. Very fast and very loud. There was guitar accompaniment, but you could hardly hear it over the taconeo.

The audience were mainly foreign tourists like us. There was one young woman seated near us who seemed conscious of the compas. I thought maybe she was a young dancer, who came to see the money making pros. Each impressive athletic display got an enthusiastic round of applause from the packed house.

There was one guitar piece by David Cerreduela, Tuto and Eugenio Santiago, who otherwise provided dance accompaniment. The main objectives of the guitar piece, with "modern" harmony and syncopated compas, seemed to be to get in as many notes as possible, as rapidly as possible. I found it boring. But I suppose it was flamenco. And it was practical and accepted: it got a big round of applause.

RNJ



Paul Magnussen -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 24 2019 18:57:42)

quote:

martinete, debla, etc. are unquestionably flamenco.

But maybe they are not practical or accepted?


I imagine that, being unaccompanied, they’re simply too hard-core for many casual aficionados.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 24 2019 19:18:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

I imagine that, being unaccompanied, they’re simply too hard-core for many casual aficionados.


Yes. In some respects I have gotten old and set in my ways, though I generally find younger people more congenial than many of my contemporaries.

The first LP I bought, at age 12, was Toscanini and the NBC Symphony playing Beethoven's Eroica Symphony. One of the few times I have heard it since, when I did not automatically compare the performance with Toscanini's, was when the Austin Symphony played it last year. Listening from one of my favorite seats in the hall, I was carried away by the "stereophonic" effect of Beethoven's magnificent orchestration. Musical figures were taken up in turn from different instruments in different places. Not a novel experience, but it had a novel effect on me.

RNJ



mark indigo -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 24 2019 20:28:26)

quote:

you cannot have flamenco in any practical, accepted form without a flamenco guitar.


the oral history of flamenco is that the cante existed BEFORE the guitar was used to accompany, so not only "yes you can" but historically certainly there was.

where is Morante? "Flamenco is Cante"



Ricardo -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 25 2019 13:37:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: etta

Interesting stuff Ricardo. But, it seems to me that you cannot have flamenco in any practical, accepted form without a flamenco guitar. The flamenco guitar, while many idioms of music can be played on it, is just as essential to flamenco music as a five string banjo is to bluegrass music. Admittedly, many flamenco players with talent and interests can play a variety of musical forms on the flamenco guitar just as Bela Fleck with his banjo can play any type of music.

The three pillars of flamenco are cante guitarra and baile. I think we can add to that palmas and cajon and in Modern practice almost any instrument that is performed properly. Any of these can deliver a solo performance un accompanied with a profound flamenco expression. Only tastes might force aficionados to lean stronger to one preferential pillar, such as cante. I admit a full concert of only one solo element probably can only be pulled off by good guitar players. But the beauty and strength I see in flamenco is that the solo format of each member is so strong, if done well, and bringing all together can be amazing. It’s sort of why it evolved a singer and guitar separated rather than like other folk musics where they mostly accompany themselves singing and guitar at once.



wilson s -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 28 2019 3:48:43)




Richard Jernigan -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 28 2019 18:23:17)

More on Fandango. In 1993 and 1994 there was an interesting exchange on the subject in Soundboard, the journal of the (classical) Guitar Foundation of America.

Richard Bruné hardly needs an introduction here. He's one of the best known luthiers and has an impressive collection of flamenco guitars. If you get into a lawsuit about a guitar, he's probably the person you want on your side, since he's a leading scholar of the instrument. Years ago he was a professional flamenco guitarist at Manolo Caracol's tablao in Mexico City. Also in Mexico he was an Anthropology student at the Universidad de las Americas. Interviewing an Otomi Indian informant, Bruné was told about the Otomi phrase pfan dan go. It means a religious ceremony and the dance associated with it. Here's Brune's letter.

https://tinyurl.com/yynuman8

This prompted a reply by Richard Pinnell:

https://tinyurl.com/yxdrbjb4
https://tinyurl.com/y6y8qnps
https://tinyurl.com/y3dejs35

which in turn engendered a reply by Bruné, and another response by Pinnell

https://tinyurl.com/y2qft3nj
https://tinyurl.com/y24fohov
https://tinyurl.com/y3l7mdc7
https://tinyurl.com/y3tq5red
https://tinyurl.com/y3yj473g

Sorry for the string of links. The 1993 and 1994 back issues of Soundboard are not yet available on the GFA web site. Bruné kindly provided the .jpgs. He says that despite the "dust up" on Soundboard, he and Pinnell are now friends.

RNJ



kitarist -> RE: What and where is the border of classical and flamenco ??? (Oct. 28 2019 20:48:38)

Thank you, Richard. Fascinating discussion!



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