BarkellWH -> Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 23 2019 13:52:56)
It was probably inevitable. This week Merriam-Webster dictionary announced that it was expanding the definition of "they" to include usage as a singular pronoun for "non-binary" individuals, i.e., those who don't classify themselves as male or female. How many "non-binary" individuals are there out there? No one knows. Nevertheless, in today's hyper-sensitive world of "Trigger warnings," "micro-aggressions," and "safe spaces," so-called "non-binary" individuals are allowed to leverage the English language to the extent that the plural pronoun "they" is used as the singular pronoun and have it recognized by an authoritative source.
Bill
mrstwinkle -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 23 2019 14:37:44)
It is one of the ways in which 'they' is used. Agree with it or not, surely a dictionary should describe current language usage as well as prescribe?
BarkellWH -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 23 2019 15:12:50)
There is the old question of should a dictionary be "prescriptive" or "descriptive." On balance, I think it should be prescriptive, as that maintains standards in a way that mere "descriptive" does not. There are many ungrammatical uses of English one hears. Should they all be in the dictionary because people use them and thus dictionaries should consider them as "descriptive"? The official recognition of the plural pronoun "they" as a singular pronoun by "non-binaries" strikes me as just one more example of political correctness run amok by pandering to one more group with a "grievance" and a claim to "victim" status. Unfortunately, it also diminishes the English language.
Bill
mrstwinkle -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 23 2019 15:32:46)
'They' has been used this way in my experience since the 90s to get around the ugly he/she problem in workplace documentation. I understand it is less than elegant however and can cause confusion. I'd prefer to see a commonly used singular gender-agnostic pronoun.
flyeogh -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 23 2019 17:11:42)
Sorry dup
flyeogh -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 23 2019 17:18:18)
Language is driven by usage. Not vice versa in my humble opinion.
Each generation regrets what is familiar to them being replaced, but that has always been true.
I wonder Bill how many changes to language your generation bought in that made your grandparents cringe? [:D]
Paul Magnussen -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 23 2019 17:50:54)
quote:
How many "non-binary" individuals are there out there? No one knows.
Nor, apparently, can anyone tell me how many different “genders” there are, or what they are. I know what my own sex is, but I still have no idea about my gender.
Paul Magnussen -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 23 2019 18:07:40)
quote:
There is the old question of should a dictionary be "prescriptive" or "descriptive." On balance, I think it should be prescriptive
The COD tries to walk the tightrope by giving descriptive usages, but adding notes as necessary to say that “some traditionalists” deplore them. It seems like a reasonable compromise, I suppose.
rombsix -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 24 2019 6:15:13)
Is this more a thread about Webster or about the non-binary notion?
Paul Magnussen -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 24 2019 7:57:12)
quote:
Is this more a thread about Webster or about the non-binary notion?
I perceive it as the former. After all, I imagine that most here would agree that if people want to be (or believe they are) non-binary, that’s their own business and no one else’s.
mrstwinkle -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 24 2019 8:36:25)
The - whether it is their own business- issue has a separate set of problems. Have a look at YouTube re Jordan Peterson taking on the Canadian legal system over compelled speech.
El Burdo -> [Deleted] (Sep. 24 2019 10:19:56)
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 22 2022 15:45:01
Piwin -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 24 2019 11:05:31)
I just finished reading Une langue venue d'ailleurs by Akira Mizubayashi. The author is a Japanese academic who began studying French at age 19 and now writes exclusively in French (rather well I might add). He describes how French was a breath of fresh air for him, a way out of the highly codified linguistic system of his own country, a way out of what he called his own "linguistic prison".
I found his book rather intriguing, since my own impression is that French, at least in literature, is almost lethally rigid, stuffy to the point of asphyxiation. The preservation of certain standards has all but crushed creativity. Amongst contemporary authors, those who don't follow those standards are painful to read, and those who do fail to connect in any real way with the reader. Only a handful manage to navigate those waters.
Matter of perspective, I suppose. Some are in rigid structures and want more flexibility, some are in flexible structures and want more rigidity. So goes it.
Neil -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 24 2019 12:43:55)
A simple expansion of definition does not equate to "evidence of the decline" of English language standards. One can only conclude the real issue here is with the recognition of non-binaries by an official source.
flyeogh -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 24 2019 13:32:46)
quote:
Matter of perspective, I suppose.
I've never been to a country (and luckily I've been to many) that is so robotic as Japan. So I can fully understand the guy's perspective.
Mark2 -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 24 2019 17:05:10)
Folks who identify as neither male or female need to come up with a different word to describe themselves rather than hijack a word already used widely that has a completely different meaning. Language appropriation will be the next generation's global warming. :-) Thankfully I find the intricacies of VA's and Antonio Rey's solea compositions more interesting than the rants on CNN, FOX, or MSNBC. Otherwise I'd walk around pis%ed everyday.
Paul Magnussen -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 24 2019 17:16:51)
quote:
Folks who identify as neither male or female need to come up with a different word to describe themselves rather than hijack a word already used widely that has a completely different meaning.
Gay was doomed decades ago. You may be facing a fait accompli.
Paul Magnussen -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 24 2019 18:06:39)
quote:
A simple expansion of definition does not equate to "evidence of the decline" of English language standards.
I beg to differ: all sorts of useful and subtle distinctions are disappearing, or have already gone. Among the first few that come to mind:
Alternate and alternative Claim and assert Convince and persuade (I’m waiting for the Jane Austen novel to be republished in the US as Conviction) Decimate and wipe out Folk singer* and singer-songwriter Alibi and excuse Impact and effect Media and criteria as singular Owing to and due to Tune and song
All lost causes, I suppose.
*Amazon sells a DVD called Folk Rewind. Of the 32 performances, I calculate the total number of folk songs to be about two (Worried Man and Michael).
Paul Magnussen -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 24 2019 18:12:00)
quote:
I just finished reading Une langue venue d'ailleurs by Akira Mizubayashi. The author is a Japanese academic who began studying French at age 19 and now writes exclusively in French (rather well I might add). He describes how French was a breath of fresh air for him […]
So is the langue venue d'ailleurs French, or Japanese?
P.S. I see that M. Mizubayashi’s biography in the French Wikipedia is written in the present tense rather than the past (e.g. it starts Il commence, rather than Il a commencé). This seems to be common practice; but it was never mentioned in the French lessons I got at school.
Is it standard, can you tell me? If I were to write a summary of my career in French (for example), should I do it this way?
Paul Magnussen -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 24 2019 18:53:49)
quote:
Have a look at YouTube re Jordan Peterson taking on the Canadian legal system over compelled speech.
Aauugghh!!
flyeogh -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 24 2019 18:54:47)
quote:
All lost causes, I suppose.
Paul, I must be missing something (I know [8|]). Those paired words on the whole have very distinct meanings. I'd expect my Spanish pupils learning English to use them correctly.
Paul Magnussen -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 24 2019 19:13:52)
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Paul, I must be missing something (I know ). Those paired words on the whole have very distinct meanings.
I suggest you tell it to the editors of Wikipedia. For a short while in its early days, I used to try and fix the mistakes; but I gave that up pretty quickly since a) many (or perhaps most) of my edits got indignantly reverted, and arguing took more time and energy than I felt like expending; and b) I realised that it was like trying to bail out the Atlantic with a tea-cup.
Piwin -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 24 2019 22:31:37)
quote:
Is it standard, can you tell me? If I were to write a summary of my career in French (for example), should I do it this way?
Yes, it is common practice to use historic present and historic future tenses for this kind of short biography.
quote:
So is the langue venue d'ailleurs French, or Japanese?
French, though in the end he sees himself as foreign to both:
"Le jour où je me suis emparé de la langue française, j’ai perdu le japonais pour toujours dans sa pureté originelle. Ma langue d’origine a perdu son statut de langue d’origine. J’ai appris à parler comme un étranger dans ma propre langue. Mon errance entre les deux langues a commencé… Je ne suis donc ni japonais ni français. Je ne cesse finalement de me rendre étranger à moi-même dans les deux langues, en allant et en revenant de l’une à l’autre, pour me sentir toujours décalé, hors de place. Mais, justement, c’est de ce lieu écarté que j’accède à la parole ; c’est de ce lieu ou plutôt de ce non-lieu que j’exprime tout mon amour du français, tout mon attachement au japonais. Je suis étranger ici et là et je le demeure."
I've rarely seen somebody learn French as an adult and reach this level of proficiency. If I knew nothing about him, I doubt I would even pick up on the fact that he's not a native speaker.
JasonM -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 24 2019 23:53:45)
Maybe we need a new pronoun for non-binary individuals. Like in quantum mechanics, there is the superposition. Neither 1 nor 0. The pronoun could be something like ehesh
Paul Magnussen -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 25 2019 0:02:01)
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Maybe we need a new pronoun for non-binary individuals
That’s what Rob/mrstwinkle was talking about: in Canada, it’s apparently about to become not only legally permitted, but compulsory. See the YouTube videos he mentions.
Paul Magnussen -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 25 2019 4:49:18)
quote:
I've rarely seen somebody learn French as an adult and reach this level of proficiency.
Yes, even with my limited comprehension, he’s very easy to understand; I had no trouble at all.
Ricardo -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 25 2019 12:27:46)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
It was probably inevitable. This week Merriam-Webster dictionary announced that it was expanding the definition of "they" to include usage as a singular pronoun for "non-binary" individuals, i.e., those who don't classify themselves as male or female. How many "non-binary" individuals are there out there? No one knows. Nevertheless, in today's hyper-sensitive world of "Trigger warnings," "micro-aggressions," and "safe spaces," so-called "non-binary" individuals are allowed to leverage the English language to the extent that the plural pronoun "they" is used as the singular pronoun and have it recognized by an authoritative source.
Bill
Yes, first the thought police control our language, next take away our guns, and finally it’s nazi Germany all over again! We must fight back now!
Ricardo -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 25 2019 12:32:32)
quote:
Is it standard, can you tell me? If I were to write a summary of my career in French (for example), should I do it this way?
Probably a biography for a performance program, literary work or lecture, but not if you are napoleon or someone deceased I would imagine [:D]
gerundino63 -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 25 2019 12:47:48)
Be carefully with calling people “they”
My parents never told me if I was a boy or a girl.
Now, I am 55 years of age, and still, if I am in the bathtub I wonder, “is this a boys pen*s, or is this a girls pen*s....”
Very, very onfusing for me....[8|][:D]
BarkellWH -> RE: Further Evidence of Decline in English Language Standards (Sep. 25 2019 14:19:55)
Just to confirm, I am not against language change over a period of time that is organic in nature. The English language has undergone changes historically, some with which I agree and some with which I disagree. But I recognize the necessity of change as long as it is organic and because of use over an extended period of time by a majority of the population.
My problem with Merriam Webster including "they" as a singular pronoun to refer to individuals who consider themselves "non-binary" is it seems to me that it has not been used by any but a small group; it has not been in use long enough and by a large enough segment of the population to be considered an organic development; and it is being imposed on the larger population by the small group who considers itself "victimized" by the English language as it stands. Merriam Webster is caving in to political correctness by recognizing this group's distortion of the English language, bypassing the normal organic development of language change.
Responses to some comments:
Ramzi: This is about Webster and language. The non-binary notion is brought up because it is the driving force. I frankly don't care if someone considers himself male, female, neither, or both.
El Burdo: You are wrong. The problem I am addressing is not as you state,"with sex and sexuality. It's just being dressed up to give an essentially reactionary viewpoint a veneer of intellectualism." See my response to Ramzi above. The problem is with Merriam Webster acquiescing in the distortion of the English language in order to appease a very small group with no evidence that the term in question ("they") has been in wide-spread use over an extended period of time.
Nell: See my responses to Ramzi and El Burdo above.
