Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Full Version)

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Escribano -> Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 11 2003 19:38:28)

Watching Tomatito the other night, I noticed that his rasgueados were mostly without thumb, i.e. non-circular. The Oscar Herrero Tangos lesson is the same, whilst the Granados lesson uses the thumb in rotation. Is this a matter of preference, or do you use a mix of both styles?

I am trying both, but find con pulgar more efficient for Tangos as, on the 5th beat, the thumb comes down on the open 5th string and then i comes up on the open 1st string rather nicely. With sin pulgar.

Hope this makes sense.

BTW - Herrero rocks but I wouldn't have appreciated it a year ago, whilst Granados (even without video) can start you off, no question - different styles, but together they constitute a powerful arsenal of learning material.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 11 2003 20:00:13)

Simon, when I first started playing rumbas about 3 years ago, the guys around here loved the marote p m p rasgeuo... they would play it so loud! That's how I started. But as my fingers gained independence, I began to experiment with other things. In Sevilla the pmp rasgeuo was used but rare. the amii was much more common... or the i up m down i down for circular things.



Ron.M -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 11 2003 20:00:29)

It's a matter of preference Simon.
There are loads and loads of ways of making a rasgueado.
As long as you end up with the sound you feel is good, then it's OK.
Flamenco has lots of "flexi-rules" regarding the music, as you now know.
Even less rules regarding technique, so long as it sounds right.
Come up with a totally lightning picado using pinky and third finger, and in 5 years time everybody will be copying it and asking for advice on nail length etc for this amazing technique!
That's Flamenco Guitar!

cheers

Ron



Escribano -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 11 2003 20:08:55)

quote:

It's a matter of preference Simon.


I knew you would say that, Tom is always saying it as well. OK, this is fun and it's taken me over a year to realise it.

You know, Granados starts his course with the Solea (5 levels) and then Tangos (1 level), Herrero starts with Tangos then Solea. I'm pleased I started with the Solea 'cos I wouldn't be able to adjust to the next palo so quickly. To be honest, the Tangos is a lot easier to comprehend and maybe it'll attract girls quicker, though I suspect it'll be the rumba[;)]



Escribano -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 11 2003 20:10:39)

What does PDL use, without watching Light and Shade again and what prevails in Andaluz?



Escribano -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 11 2003 20:17:58)

I think I figured it out.

At med school you quickly learn that everyone's fingers (and pretty much everything else) are different lengths, relative to their neighbours and other people. Maybe that's why it varies - one fashionable player with odd fingers does one thing and we all struggle to copy it?

There are at least four different body types that exhibit major relative variations e.g. I cannot get comfortable with PDL's position (my huge genitalia scream their alarm[;)]) and I now adopt a quasi-classical pose, with a footstool.



Ron.M -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 11 2003 22:28:22)

quote:

maybe it'll attract girls quicker


Nah! Simon,
Toques libres, like a nice Granaínas with beautiful chords IMO.
Las chicas are absolutely unimpressed by great alzapua or picado etc in my experience [:D]
Save that for jam sessions with the guys.

Your right about everybody's physiology being different, so certain things come easier to them, which coupled with their musical taste, gives rise to their "propio sello" or own sound or toque.
To me this is one of the things that makes Flamenco guitar so interesting.

Of course everybody has to start somewhere, so you need some instruction to do some of the basic techniques, but you can then start to explore those techniques and fine tune them to suit yourself.

In the end, if it sounds good then it's good. LOL!

Ron



Ron.M -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 11 2003 22:39:58)

Also (and I know this is wrong if you want to be a professional), I don't use any particular position for playing. Just cross one leg over the other and play for half an hour until one leg becomes numb, then cross them the other way. LOL!
I can't do the PdL position due to a hip injury which landed me in hospital for 3 months when I was 8.
We were playing "best falls" which we played each Saturday after watching John Wayne films at the morning kid's matinee.
It involved running down a grassy hill while somebody "shot" you from behind a rock.
The assembled kids would take turns each and vote the "best fall".
I broke my bloody hip.
But it was a pretty good "fall" and was much appreciated.
Jeez, and these so called actors complain about what they have to go through?

LOL!

Ron



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 11 2003 23:31:10)

Simon;

The vast majority of teachers will demand you do exactly as they say and will give you no allowance to try anything you want to do. Few teachers will agree on anything as they all know everything. Few teachers teach the why - just do as I say!

When you get to the point you make decisions for reasons you understand then you are on the road to creating your own sound. Which rasgueado should I use? First understand what the music requires, listen intently and then play what you hear inside.



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 11 2003 23:34:58)

Ron;

The beauty of any injury is when you get older and arthritis sets in it makes the original pain seem like a whisper. Now prepare for the tornado!



Phil -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 11 2003 23:53:59)

quote:

What does PDL use, without watching Light and Shade again and what prevails in Andaluz?


Simon,

I think what prevails is what one's teacher taught him. Nowadays, with the proliferation of instructional videos and such, we're suffering from information overload and seeing all kinds of ways to do the same thing. Whereas, before all of this technology you just did whatever your teacher showed you. I just saw the Merengue de Cordoba Encuentro video and he does a p(up)xp! I've never seen anyone use that one before, but it works well for him. The most common rasqueados that I've seen in this area tend to be the p(up)mp and the amii. It's really difficult to tell if a guitarist is doing a p(up)am or p(up)mi unless they actually show you. I noticed that Paco Cepero uses the circular p(up)xami, which stuck out in my mind because I haven't seen other Jerez guitarists use it. Especially those that had Rafael del Aguila as their first teacher: Cepero, Parilla, the Jeros, El Carbonero, Gerardo Nuñez, etc. The bottom line is that you pick out a couple that you like, and get comfortable with them. Like Ron said, the important thing is that it sounds good. I've also noticed that they are interchangeable and it's up to the whim of the guitarist which he's going to use at any given time and it can vary within the same toque. So, if I were you, I'd pick out a couple and practice them until you can play them in your sleep and not worry about the rest. Although, I think the amii is indispensible. I don't think I've ever seen anyone who doesn't use it.
Phil



Jim Opfer -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 12 2003 17:10:57)

Ron,
'Best falls', I've got two boys, I was trying to interest the younger one with his pals just last week and was daft enough to do a demo, nearly broke my back, full forward roll!
Still watching Big John, he was on today, Daktari, absolute mince! like my best fall.
Cheers
Jim



Escribano -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 12 2003 17:46:12)

quote:

Daktari

Do you mean "Hatari"? He got off with that Italian pretty quickly didn't he? The dirty dog.



Guest -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 12 2003 19:55:01)

Hola Simon

In flamenco there are no rules about technique: everybody copies the hot guitarist. I have only 3 rasgeos: the 3 finger roll (mip) which everybody uses: it is simple contratiempo, muy de Jerez, the 4 finger roll (amip) which is fuller and my favourite but regarded as old fashioned. Por bulerias, a variation of the Paco Peña pai, which is seldom used in Jerez, except for dance, where the Marote roll is more popular.

However, people who can really play (for example Juan Ramon Ortega from Cadiz), have an amazing variety of rasgeo: 2,3,4,5 fingers in all sorts of combinations for different effects.

If it fits, use it (assuming that you know what sounds flamenco:-))

Sean



Ron.M -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 12 2003 20:13:38)

Hi Jim,
Good to hear you're passing the knowledge on! LOL!
You know, these Jerez kids might be great at this Flamenco stuff, but how would they fare on a game of kick-the-can, pole tig or "the meegie" ?

cheers

Ron



El Craic -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 14 2003 8:54:50)

Hi guys I got totaly paranoid after having my right hand pulled apart in August. I recently had another lesson with some guy from Madrid recentty and it was more right hand right hand right hand. Obviously more slow metronome work for me! How the hell do you guard against bad habits unless you have regular lessons with a good teacher? This is my focus for the next year.

I noticed that their two technques were quite different, the first had quite long fingers like me and the second had smaller hand which were very neat.

PS - Sod rumbas I love a solea and an I'm highly impressed with a quick alzapua! [:)]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 14 2003 19:07:39)

El Craic, it seems that technique is rather individualistic, although there are certain "universal rules." What is a bad habit? Does that mean an inefficiency in your playing, or something that your teacher doesn't do and therefore condemns? It seems to me that if you buy a few books on technique and read them thoroughly, you will be able to guard against most bad habits. If you chose to do this, get Classical Guitar Pedagogy by Anthony Glise, Advanced Flamenco Guitar by Denis Kostner, and some sort of beginning primer such as Juan Martin's. What this will do is give you a good idea of what is supposed to happen. If you combine this with consistent work with a mirror, most things will take care of themselves. When I was in Spain, the teachers gave a lot of 'feedback' to other students, and very little to me. I believe this is because I had studied the 'rules' of technique and tried to apply them to how I play.

Another lesson I learned is from having 3 teachers, all of whose bodies looked completely different while doing many exercises. One guy's hand will fall over the edge of the guitar, the other will be straight up and down while one is bent, etc. I think you need to experiement to find out works for you. One universal truth is that you have to be extremely relaxed. Your arms and hands should feel like jello, almost--no tension at all! Once you can get that sensation, you can fool around to get comfortable, but if have tension in your hands nothing is going to work. Learning to relax takes a lot of work and should be an important part of your practice. Once you start on this track, you will be amazed and heartened by the progress that occurs. It will be like opening a door.



Ron.M -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 14 2003 20:25:32)

El Craic,
Yeah, it's very frustrating, but I'm sure after seeing El Carbonero and Rafael and this other guitarist that you've got the rough idea of how to do a basic ragueado and some thumb technique!
Practising with a metronome is good, and it's just a case of keeping at the basics until it starts to click.
Remember, all these Flamenco "superstars" are all "backwards compatible".
That is to say, they can all play very basic, very simple traditional falsetas with great feeling and rhythm.
Some foreign guitarists prefer to miss that stuff out and jump straight into the difficult stuff.
I don't know if that works or not, but what it does say, is that not only can these superstars play the amazing stuff better, but can play the simpler stuff better too.
Don't know if you catch my drift on this! LOL!
Why don't you stick a simple audio post up so folk here can maybe hear where the difficulties are and maybe be able to give some advice?
Don't be shy, we're all learners here!

cheers

Ron



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 14 2003 20:28:59)

Speaking of, Ron, just two seconds ago I was practicing simple bulerias compas, using a solea por bulerias solo compas CD, and I thought of you. remember you said that someone told you that although you hit on 12, 3, and 10, the reason it didn't sound as good as him was that you wern't hitting the other beats as perfectly? Well, the solo compas has a clapping on lots of beats, and I bet you could just concentrate on hitting those non accents using the solo compas. One advantage over a metronome. Hope that helps. Back to work on compas for me!



Ron.M -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 14 2003 21:10:15)

Hi Michael,
Actually what I think you are referring to was a discussion several months ago about hitting dead on the centre of the beat or not....which caused a few arguments on the old FT Forum! The "Perfect Timing" thread. LOL!
As I've said before, the "tunes" created in Flamenco, are (to me anyway) just melodic patterns around a rhythmic framework.
The notes themselves are not really that important.
But where someone can create a beautiful melodic piece on top of that framework, then it becomes a classic or falseta of noteworthiness.

cheers,

Ron

PS. I have a bit of advantage in not just having a "click-click" metronome, but one which accentuates the compás in any rhythmic fashion you wish and is fully speed adjustable!



El Craic -> RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (Oct. 15 2003 8:50:50)

Thanks guys I will take a look at those books. The teacher who spoke English was great as he helped me find my way rather than telling me to copy him but he lives in Oxford so I have to fly over. The bad habits are indeed all tension related.

Ron I am relieved to say that I will have difficulties posting an audio just at the mo as i am accessing this from work and I think my supervisor sitting opposite me (who thinks I am researching travel claims policies at the moment) might object if I bring my guitar in to work. [:D] But maybe if I get a PC in the nearish future I will coz it would be useful. Thanks again.

I have no intention of playing anything flashy until my basics are absolutely perfect and I make them look easy! Right off to do some work catch u later.

Thanks!!!! :-)



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