Flamenco Jazz (Full Version)

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Brendan -> Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 1 2018 12:08:07)

This article by Peter Manuel is quite a long and dense read, but there is scope for disagreement, so I thought y’all might like it:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y81qO2R1IxPT5wqy_YLXc2DfAWTvbRXk1JI_fL7wRgQ



JasonM -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 1 2018 15:07:19)

For starters.. what thriving flamenco jazz scene? [:D] Oh, he means those musicians you can count on one hand that did some fusion like 30 years ago.



Piwin -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 1 2018 15:37:47)

quote:

what thriving flamenco jazz scene?


It's fairly big in Madrid.



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 2 2018 12:33:49)

I actually read the entire article and found it interesting, as well as discouraging as far as the future of flamenco as we have known it goes. In other threads I have predicted that flamenco (even in its more "modern" versions) will eventually disappear as a separate genre. What will kill it will be the desperate attempt by flamenco musicians and singers to remain "relevant." It won't disappear immediately, but you can see the slow chipping away of the genre today, and it has been going on for some time.

I suspect that flamenco will eventually be subsumed into some form of "World Music." Peter Manuel's article on "Flamenco Jazz" suggests that the the flow is all one way, i.e., it is not jazz being incorporated into flamenco; rather, it is flamenco being incorporated into jazz. The insidious effect will eventually be the absorption of flamenco into jazz, or World Music, or whatever the "Next Big Thing" is.

Bill



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 2 2018 14:55:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brendan

This article by Peter Manuel is quite a long and dense read, but there is scope for disagreement, so I thought y’all might like it:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y81qO2R1IxPT5wqy_YLXc2DfAWTvbRXk1JI_fL7wRgQ


Scope? I couldn’t make it past first paragraphs due to wrong dates, chronology and basic info. As a start, here is a simple timeline:

Miles Davis-sketches of spain, kind of blue (late 1950’s)>Chick Corea/John Mclaughlin/Dimeola fusion era (1970’s)>Paco de lucia
Running Parallel to Miles Davis time wise was Carlos Montoya St. Louis to Seville, then Juan Serrano Autumn leaves etc>sabicas tells PDL in NYC to compose his own music (1965)>Paco experiments with Sax project of Garcia Lorca stuff (1969)>records rumba with Al Dimeola 1977>Mclaughlin hear’s Paco and Al and forms trio with Coryell in 1979....the convergence of Jazz guys trying flamenco, and Flamenco guys experimenting with Jazz finally meets with the Trio in 1980 however the seeds were planted in the late 1950’s. It took a long time to reintroduce the compas of solea (Miles “Solea” and Paco’s “Chiquito”) to jazz artists (1958-1983!).

Because the strong influence of both Miles Davis and Paco de Lucia on their respective genres, it’s a no brainer as to how and why the concept of fusing the two styles caught fire and has not really strayed from the forumula that much musically. The main aversion flamenco supporters have is to the instrumentation (how dare a saxophone or trumpet attempt any flamenco?). Conversely few Jazz artists understand flamenco as Miles did (as forms, not just a chord and scale). The truth is the death of Flamenco is due to the lack of variety in the cante...which can be blamed more on the Baile and the Camaron influence than “jazz” of course. Finally, folks seem to forget that there is no more “world music” genre and jazz is also almost dying, because there are no more RECORD STORES in need of such marketing, and the amount of young people learning about advanced music is shrinking exponentially due to the changing world of smart phones and instagram. What we will be left with is “youtube” the place to find any and all interesting music from all times.



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 2 2018 16:15:04)

quote:

What we will be left with is “youtube” the place to find any and all interesting music from all times.


If, as I suspect and noted in my post above, flamenco as we know it will eventually be dead with no live performances, and as you suggest all we will be left with is "YouTube" with recorded past performances when flamenco was alive, I find that a very poor trade-off. Flamenco will still be dead, although its past will be "preserved in the amber" of YouTube. It will not be a living art form, which makes it such a vibrant genre.

Bill



RobF -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 2 2018 16:43:43)

quote:

It's fairly big in Madrid.


When you say flamenco-jazz has a presence in Madrid, is the music you are referring to similar to what can be found on Jorge Pardo’s “Vientos Flamencos” album? For example.

I found it a difficult article to read, which undoubtedly affected my absorption because I started to skim over parts of it, but the impression I was left with is that’s the school/trend he was talking about.



kitarist -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 2 2018 17:27:29)

Does anyone else see screwed up formatting and many pages of a few symbols on each?

In any case I do, so I found the pdf version, which is available for free and does not have any issues (direct download) :

https://jjs.libraries.rutgers.edu/index.php/jjs/article/download/113/89



RobF -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 2 2018 17:58:09)

Thanks, the .pdf is lot more readable.



Piwin -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 2 2018 19:47:25)

I haven't listened to that album so I couldn't say, but I'd imagine it's similar since Pardo is one of the guys you see all over in that "circuit".

There are certain venues that have pretty good flamenco programming but at the same time have a bunch of other genres programmed as well. "Flamenco jazz" is fairly common in those venues. I haven't read through the whole article yet, but what I'm imagining is essentially instrumentalist-led music, with a wider array of instruments than you would usually have in flamenco and probably some focus on improvisation. That can go from a piano, drums, double-bass trio, to something a bit closer to flamenco with guitar and palmeros. There's a pretty wide spectrum. It also includes some types of singing that probably wouldn't even be considered cante by most. "Flamenco-ey pop" maybe?



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 2 2018 20:55:52)

quote:

"Flamenco-ey pop" maybe?


Ugh!

Bill



Piwin -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 2 2018 21:07:53)

I accidentally deleted the last part of my post while trying to edit it...

Oh well, long story short: not much good cante= really good dance accompanists or guitarists who look for other creative avenues by hooking up with instrumentalists from other genres. That's basically where the quality is in Madrid. Dance accompaniment and technical virtuosity for instrumental/improvisational pieces. Cante accompaniment is probably sub-par compared to Andalucia.



RobF -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 2 2018 23:50:38)

quote:

Pardo is one of the guys you see all over in that "circuit".


Sorry, I meant the “Vientos Flamencos 2” album, I haven’t heard the first, either. But I get the gist now, if his name is associated, thanks :)



Piwin -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 3 2018 1:27:01)

Here's a few others that come to mind:
Pedro Ojesto:

(also has a band with El Amir and David Cerreduela)

Amos Lora:


Jerry Gonzalez and Antonio Mesa, both quite active on their own (well, not Jerry. He was, but then his apartment burned down with him in it. At least that's what I've been told.):


not a big name, but just to give an example for Bill of people I've heard that tried to incorporate "non cante singing" (apparently from Sevilla. Can't remember where I saw them tbh. I just remember that she did scat. ^^):


Some of these guys are almost like cantaores in the sense that a bunch of guitarists congregate around them so you should be able to find performances of them with quite a few recognizable names among Madrid flamenco guitarists. Same with Pardo. Anyways, I really should read the article before commenting further to be sure that I'm talking about the same thing!



JasonM -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 3 2018 3:02:07)

Madrid scene... ok. Didn’t know. Forgot about this YouTube channel “ Ac recoletos hotel”. I’m sure you’ve seen it.
https://youtu.be/PYQwPXF6Mk8



RobF -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 3 2018 3:19:04)

Yeah, what you’re talking about is the same thing as what I was envisioning. It also appears to line up with Bill’s interpretation of the direction of influence suggested by the article. So we’re probably all on the same page.

I might read the article again now that I have a frame of reference. But I’d rather just sit in a club in Madrid and listen to any of the performances in the first three videos, were the option available, maybe catch something next visit if I can swing it.



Piwin -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 3 2018 9:35:47)

I actually never went to that one. Something about going to the Marriott for a night out just felt weird. [8D]
But yeah, that type of programming is fairly common in jazz clubs or "jazz-friendly venues". If you look up the programming of places like Café central (jazz) or Café Berlin (pot-pourri of pretty much everything..) you'll probably find similar shows. I guess it's a bit more of a fraught discussion when those shows make it in to certain tablaos, some of whom are notorious for hosting that kind of performance more than traditional flamenco.



JasonM -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 3 2018 14:20:50)

quote:

Something about going to the Marriott for a night out just felt weird.

I’d go. They got a Starbucks? [:D]



Piwin -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 3 2018 18:27:16)

[:D]

Nah man. Madrid is a very authentic Spanish city with very little foreign influence.
cough...cough...
yeah they've probably got one. If they don't there's half a dozen of them within walking distance. [8D]



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 4 2018 11:49:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

What we will be left with is “youtube” the place to find any and all interesting music from all times.


If, as I suspect and noted in my post above, flamenco as we know it will eventually be dead with no live performances, and as you suggest all we will be left with is "YouTube" with recorded past performances when flamenco was alive, I find that a very poor trade-off. Flamenco will still be dead, although its past will be "preserved in the amber" of YouTube. It will not be a living art form, which makes it such a vibrant genre.

Bill


What I meant about youtube applies to all music.... meaning it’s the direction humans are taking, no music style can fight it. However, your idea about flamenco disappearing due to jazz world etc fusions, is very superficial. Flamenco continues to thrive amongst gypsy communities in the age old manner since 1800’s where people like you or me are not invited....but once and a while they take upon themselves to record it. But there is NO REASON to record it just to make purist aficionados happy. Here’s an example of young Flamenco’s not afraid to experiment with modern trends (all these folks do your jazz fusion as well as they please) but have no fear that their very personal traditional music might disappear:





RobF -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 4 2018 14:44:42)

quote:

Flamenco continues to thrive amongst gypsy communities in the age old manner since 1800’s where people like you or me are not invited....but once and a while they take upon themselves to record it. But there is NO REASON to record it just to make purist aficionados happy


Now that virtually everybody is carrying around a portable video camera on their phone, people are posting stuff on places like Facebook that is much less self-conscious than the older archival type videos. At least in that sense, it’s a win for aficionados.

This link is to a phone capture of what appears to be a wedding celebration. The look on the young lad’s face at the end of the video tells me Flamenco isn’t dying anytime soon.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1074070789398017&id=987121694759594&refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2Flogin.php%3Fref%3D104&_rdr&ref=104

(Hopefully the link works. Also, Simon or Henry, please feel free to delete it if linking to Facebook is a problem for the Foro.)



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco Jazz (Dec. 4 2018 21:12:27)

quote:

Flamenco continues to thrive amongst gypsy communities in the age old manner since 1800’s where people like you or me are not invited....all these folks do your jazz fusion as well as they please) but have no fear that their very personal traditional music might disappear:


That could well be, and I have always said that flamenco as we know it may survive in very small niche communities. But I am afraid that such music will have to be sought out by ethno-musicologists (much like Allan Lomax). But the direction flamenco is going suggests to me that the larger community of aficionados (such as members of the Foro) will no longer see flamenco performances, other than, as you suggest, on YouTube, which I consider small consolation. But that's just my opinion, and I may be wrong.

Bill



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