RE: Roasted spruce (Full Version)

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estebanana -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 5 2018 6:22:04)

Rufus, honey the adults are having a debate about a separate topic. One thing at a time sweetie. Now go outside and play on the swing set and we'll call you in for cake when we finish. I promise sweetheart, now get your puppy and go in the backyard like a good boy.



Ruphus -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 5 2018 12:03:40)

I´m no homey. [>:]
Me has FOUR puppies of the Baskervilles (that make manual workers dance and hop across the yard, trying to never come back, though shaggies only wanting to sniff)!

And missing out on the topic / clinching to pectin / not listening to anything of relevance / denying Copernicus and burning witches on stakes are you; riders of the dark wood!



estebanana -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 5 2018 12:25:51)

Please bow out, the conversation is over your head. Once again you arrogantly insert off topic self obsessive opinions. We're talking about alternative species to build guitars with and you interject your meta obsessions that no one but you gives any care about.

Please go away, you contribute zero to this discussion.



Echi -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 5 2018 13:23:40)

Please, there is no reason for offensive posts.



estebanana -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 5 2018 13:42:14)

Why not? Ruphus has been freely offending for ten years. How much fake science and attitudes do you want to take?



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 5 2018 13:49:49)

I agree, Echi. Let's all be nice.



Ruphus -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 5 2018 13:58:47)

The very least that it takes to make out "fake science" is to view it in the first place.

Unfortunately, not the way worshippers tend to do, though.
They simply keep riding their rocking horse and rather impute hoax to academic studies then to ever accept 'annoying facts'.
-


Again:
Has anyone here apart from sulking Steffen listend to the 'inferior' guitar?



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 5 2018 14:59:18)

quote:

The very least that it takes to make out "fake science" is to view it in the first place.


Ruphus,

Sometimes science tells us what we want to know, not necessarily tells us what we don't want to know. I inject what I know and what works for me and people think I'm off my rocker:-)

However, the proof is in guitar sales since I don't own even one guitar to practice with. They all have sold, thank God.

Richard Brune once asked me, why did I choose to share my ideas of fine tuning since I worked so hard all these years to accumulate knowledge of the process. I think my answer was because no one showed me this and I have the perfect right to share if I want to.

So I have shared this system with beginning builders and some long time builders and none of them have had any negative feed back from it.

One of my past students who is no beginner, was Manuel Adalid, one of the principle owners of the Esteve Guitar Factory in Valencia Spain. Very nice fellow and open to new ideas, and he created a new model with my tuning ideas that has been quite well received.

Arcangel Fernandez used a system of fine tuning that incorporated water and sea salt being rubbed on the fan braces to release a dynamic that made a difference for him. But when I mentioned this, I got all kinds of negative input about it, except for a few builders who actually tried it and said that it worked.

So this is going to be my last sharing with any process that works for me, my friend. But I'll let you know when I finish the 1987 Reyes style, Gd willing.

Also, I might add, concerning the topic on this thread, that anytime you alter the molecular structure of wood, like a torrefied process, you run the risk of opening a pandoras box or something that really works with fine tuning adjustments.



Echi -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 5 2018 16:18:49)

quote:

Richard Brune once asked me, why did I choose to share my ideas of fine tuning

Sorry Tom, I didn’t see you sharing any of your techniques at all. You are claiming to use such a method and praising how well it works for you but never entered in details.
In my understanding you are selling one to one classes to learn your techniques, which is perfectly ok but a different matter.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 5 2018 17:35:09)

quote:

Sorry Tom, I didn’t see you sharing any of your techniques at all.


I'm not trying to be mean, but I have to say, I have always been puzzled by how uninformative Tom's "tutorials" are. (Not to mention the erroneous naming of various parts of the guitar.)



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 5 2018 17:39:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

quote:

Richard Brune once asked me, why did I choose to share my ideas of fine tuning

Sorry Tom, I didn’t see you sharing any of your techniques at all. You are claiming to use such a method and praising how well it works for you but never entered in details.
In my understanding you are selling one to one classes to learn your techniques, which is perfectly ok but a different matter.


Some who visited this list actually experimented with the techniques so I would think there is enough information to get you going, without having to invest in a class. The feed back I got came from them e-mailing my business; it was a private response.

But the bottom line to all of this is that we shouldn't ask if this is crazy but is it crazy enough to pursue. I applaud anyone who has the motivation to pursue his dreams.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 5 2018 17:58:08)

quote:


I'm not trying to be mean, but I have to say, I have always been puzzled by how uninformative Tom's "tutorials" are. (Not to mention the erroneous naming of various parts of the guitar.)


Well Mario, I did my best without giving the farm away, as this is a way I earn a living. :-)

So please point out where I mentioned the erroneous naming of parts to the guitar and I'll try to correct it.

And I don't consider your post as being mean; just having fun.



Echi -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 5 2018 21:43:06)

Ok, but then you cannot honestly write that you are sharing your method or what you understood about fine tuning “because no one showed me this and I have the perfect right to share”...



estebanana -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 5 2018 23:06:53)

Oh good lord, it's always about ruphus and Tom and the fake science they peddle. Why, why why? It's so toxic .



JasonM -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 6 2018 0:08:12)

Whew spruce isn’t the only thing roasting in this thread.



estebanana -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 6 2018 1:42:29)

I'm about to petition Simon if he can make a separate chat space just to accommodate Tom's and ruphus' constant trolling so the rest of us have a 'safe space'.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 6 2018 3:14:47)

quote:

Ok, but then you cannot honestly write that you are sharing your method or what you understood about fine tuning “because no one showed me this and I have the perfect right to share”...


Echi,

Not all of my fine tuning posts are condensed into one thread, You have to look around through all of my threads to find them. Some of them are on my website to glean from.

I'm not here to set a table with all the trimmings to satisfy your desires but to work out issues, as I build from time to time. This is what I mean by sharing my process, and the mention of a tutorial is to show how I build, as my current thread indicates.

So, it would be out of line for me to high jack this thread about torrefied tops. I have my own thread which is currently talking about how I build the 1987 Reyes style.

So I have to assume that you guys are just having fun with this. But if you're not, then I can leave and do others things related to my work; no harm done.



estebanana -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 6 2018 4:44:38)

This is the point at which my grandfather used to say: " Roll up your trouser legs Stephen, the poop is running high. "

If there is anything else anyone wants to know about actual chemistry related to the torrefaction process let me know. My contact who runs under deep cover may be kind enough to venture to answer a round of thoughful questions on the subject.

Otherwise I'll be reading some history and posting fact checked information here from time to time.
Ciao



Ruphus -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 6 2018 13:00:32)

That makes sense. As your deeply covered contact backed you up on pectin, everyone should rely on you as a source of wisdom on thermal treatment and anything anyway.

For the rest of folks who think that there is value in scientific research there are resources like here though: https://www.researchgate.net/search?q=thermal%20wood

With the right terminology over the search function, chances are good for to find papers on whatever question that one might be having on wood and tone wood properties.

Tom,

Before you posted about salt in this thread, I had come across a paper title that dealt with effects of salt on wood. (And if not mistaking, it was in English language.)
I wasn´t able to find it back after seeing your post, but if you make a search with several English terms you may possibly find it.



SephardRick -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 6 2018 13:23:12)

Trolling? The Prof maybe, but he's been gone for years. I like reading what Tom and Rufus have to say. Polishing struts with salt...singing to struts...it's beyond me. However the reality for me is the fact, I've seen Tom's guitars sell for $15,000. So, yeah. I listen to Tom.



Echi -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 6 2018 14:16:43)

@SephardRick,
I am with you when You say Tom is a successful guitarmaker. I don’t doubt it.
Also I have not problems with things like salt and top tuning: I’ll tell you that after having read the book of Sacconi I passed the following 2 years doing some experiments with the treatment of the wood plates with saline solutions, silicates and other stuff. I eventually gave up (and the disciple of Sacconi told me he had done the same thing few years after having written the book, but this is a different matter).
What I don’t like is the constant recall to secret techniques of top tuning (whatever the topic discussed) because it sounds to me like a subtle advertising of Tom’s classes.
If it is a secret, then keep it for yourself, if you like to discuss it, then speak openly and possibly with a basical scientific background.
These are meant to be my last words on this topic.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 6 2018 15:37:49)

Thanks Rick,

The long and the short of it is that experimentation with wood brings on many changes and we are successful only when we find a technique that makes it work.

I've found something that works but it is done in small increments, not a process designed to make wood respond from a set process. It takes learned intuitive skill and knowledge built on hours of practice.

In this sense, some of my students get it and a few of them don't. Mark Usherovich got it when I showed him the technique on one of his Miguel Rodriguez style guitars. We would listen for the tone, then I would tell him where to go to polish a certain fan brace to bring out certain qualities to the tone.

This system of thought is similarly done with the violin family. So anyone with the ability to reason can go in and touch a fan brace and see the difference right away, whether it be to improve articulation, or tone change, or both.

I used this salt and water technique on Chaconne Klaverenga's Blackshear guitar.




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 6 2018 16:01:32)

quote:

What I don’t like is the constant recall to secret techniques of top tuning (whatever the topic discussed) because it sounds to me like a subtle advertising of Tom’s classes.


How astute of you to notice. Yes, I use this as an invitation for my fine tuning classes. But this doesn't mean that I haven't shared a good deal of information for those with enough motivation, to put things together and make it work for themselves.

So with your complaints, I have noticed that you want me to provide exact rules and techniques that clearly show you the process. Well, It's not happening other than what I've already given, so go look it up........do a search and find what I have already shared on this forum; that is, if you are really that interested.

I'll repeat myself this one time: I had an e-mail from a builder in Portugal who asked about the 2003 Reyes plan I drew and donated to the GAL. I suggested he buy the plan and let me know what he thought after he built it. I suggested that he pay close attention the the fan brace sizes and shapes.

I heard back from him a few months later and he told me that the guitar he built for Rafael Requeni turned out to be incredible. So there is no excuse for the class if you are a competent builder and can follow the plan.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 6 2018 17:51:00)

quote:

I'm about to petition Simon if he can make a separate chat space just to accommodate Tom's and Ruphus' constant trolling so the rest of us have a 'safe space'.


Hi Steve,

I appreciate you as a builder and perhaps your suggestion could have some merit. But what I have a problem with is; would it work.

I don't have much time, like on earlier threads, to expound my findings, but for those who do, I think it might be interesting.

I'm all for information to find new ways to improve the guitar.

Do you have any new projects on line?



Echi -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 6 2018 18:43:45)

quote:

How astute of you to notice. Yes, I use this as an invitation for my fine tuning classes. But this doesn't mean that I haven't shared a good deal of information for those with enough motivation, to put things together and make it work for themselves.


Good to have clarified it once and for all.

quote:

So with your complaints, I have noticed that you want me to provide exact rules and techniques that clearly show you the process.


Not really. Thanks and good work.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 6 2018 21:07:58)

This is how the Seattle Luthiers Group roasts guitars in Seattle, WA, USA. (Annual Guitar Burn, coming up September 11th)



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



RobF -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 6 2018 23:14:19)

Lol, “Burning Man” for guitar makers. [:D]

It looks like one of the two guitars being sacrificed was built using the new “glueless” method. [8|]



JasonM -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 7 2018 1:50:07)

I have a Yamaha 171sf is like to donate for burning



estebanana -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 7 2018 7:05:00)

I'm at a total loss as to how on Earth to relate to guys. Here rational factual refutation is given to someone's misunderstanding and insistence that an incorrect guess at a chemical process is ok. The the subject gets changed from the refutation that pectin is a magical substance to sea salt.

No one cares about facts, reality or integrity. It all for nothing. Lies are ok as long as they entertain and make you feel good. Holding people to account when they are wrong time and again and arrogant about it is a nuisance. Holding people to account when they pass off myth and naive guesswork expecting the audience to lap it up is called uncomfortable, mean and unpleasant.

Tell you guys something I can't relate to any of you who do that and give anti intellectualism a pass. I'm at a loss of how to understand why this is happening, why the public discoure does not support truth and hard won factual information.

It's too uncomfortable to be real, to look at facts, to uphold some intelligent standard of measure of what is correct and I correct? It's too unpleasant?

I'm glad you guys just worry about guitars and thank God you don't fly jetliners or practice medicine. Because you don't have the intellectual capacity.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Roasted spruce (Sep. 7 2018 9:33:27)

quote:

Tell you guys something I can't relate to any of you who do that and give anti intellectualism a pass. I'm at a loss of how to understand why this is happening, why the public discourse does not support truth and hard won factual information.


I appreciate science to explain a system and how it works but this issue has it roots in being able to figure things out with intuitive skill without knowing the science of it. It's called adjustment to acknowledge something that happens when you do a certain thing to wood and it responds in like manner.

For this kind of work it doesn't take rocket science. And intellectualism is acceptable with any experiment being done but the actual doing of it is more important after the thought process is made to try it out.

I'm not just at the table discussing how to make something happen, I go and make it happen by using an active pursuit to complete it.

Can science assist the human touch? Absolutely, but it can’t create a quality voice without human technique, and nuance."



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