RE: **Learning CANTE together** (Full Version)

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Ricardo -> RE: **Learning CANTE together** (Sep. 16 2022 12:14:19)

Excellent stuff. I saw that guy before but I like those transcriptions. The only issue is he should transpose them to the key the guitar plays in (at least) or for simplicity everything in E Phrygian (no sharps or flats for comparative ease at grasping likes and differences). I am assuming he transcribed the stuff himself, and if so, it was very well done.

The first video of Platero, that is Quino style I believe (Triana, normally high pitches above tonic so a lower key is necessary. Platero is way up there like halford LOL). Bb Phrygian (Gb major) is more or less a theoretical key, if you see Bach’s Well temp. Clavier he would use F# major, which is more legit (A# Phrygian), but that is a minor detail.

The second vid, none of those melodies are the Soleá, according to the old rules of not mixing up cantes and the naming system of Mairena/Solers. Those are all buleria larga. The important thing of the melody with that style is the half compas extension of the cambio…of which Pansequito really stretches it out musically.

The exception was Maria, who luckly sings in the soprano range in E phrygian and octave high, so the melody looks great on paper. The first cante is like Joaquin but she goes higher, and the repeat is almost like Serneta 1. An interesting mix of the two style IMO, and I guess there will be arguments there. The second I would say Andonda 1. Obviously those are the only real Soleá styles in the second video. Thanks for sharing!

EDIT.

About the compas concept he introduces, we talked a lot about this in the past. Search starting on one verses 12, and half compas etc. He has the typical epiphany that the accent pattern is not notated “correctly” if counts 1,4,7, and 10 are marked as DOWN beats. His solution is to shift the accents to down beats then he notices a non symmetrical phrasing to the cante, hence 7+5=12. Well, this won’t work as you mix and cross forms and introduce the symmetry of half compas phrasing. The secret to compas is really in the 10 count phrasing itself, with the two extra beats. It needs to be understood as it is what glues together the various forms at different tempos. We learn this in the baile and here I give a great example of McGuire playing solea that transitions into buleria. If someone tries to uses the 7+5 phrasing it loses sight of the connection between solea and buleria.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=317280&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=jason%2Ccount&tmode=&smode=&s=#317368



orsonw -> RE: **Learning CANTE together** (Sep. 16 2022 15:47:07)

quote:

The exception was Maria, who luckly sings in the soprano range in E phrygian and octave high, so the melody looks great on paper. The first cante is like Joaquin but she goes higher, and the repeat is almost like Serneta 1. An interesting mix of the two style IMO, and I guess there will be arguments there. The second I would say Andonda 1. Obviously those are the only real Soleá styles in the second video.


Thanks for your reply. I will focus on Maria Vargas. Hopefully at some point I will be able understand/recognise the more common solea cante melodies. Although I realise there are always variations with each singer and no definitive blue print version of each style.



Ricardo -> RE: **Learning CANTE together** (Sep. 17 2022 15:33:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

The exception was Maria, who luckly sings in the soprano range in E phrygian and octave high, so the melody looks great on paper. The first cante is like Joaquin but she goes higher, and the repeat is almost like Serneta 1. An interesting mix of the two style IMO, and I guess there will be arguments there. The second I would say Andonda 1. Obviously those are the only real Soleá styles in the second video.


Thanks for your reply. I will focus on Maria Vargas. Hopefully at some point I will be able understand/recognise the more common solea cante melodies. Although I realise there are always variations with each singer and no definitive blue print version of each style.


There are specifics about the delivery of La Serneta, for example, only singing the first line then waiting a compas before delivering both together, but I am thinking those details are about orthodoxy and remove the improvisational aspects that are allowed for any singer that knows what they are doing. But that is one reason I think it best to argue that she is intending Joaquin 1 Alcala style with the first letra. It is just she hits the B note above A which is not typical. Serneta actually has to go up to C, first AND second line, so that’s I why I felt she was sort of in the middle of the two styles.

The chords are unaffected, although years ago, Romerito argued that some singers hit a G natural instead of G# and that signaled guitar players to go for G major as proper accompaniment of Joaquin 1. In my experience that is literally a flat note (a mistake, unintentional) and the guitar should stick to the Am first chord move. So in that sense, for what to understand, the basic chord progression is the same for both styles, and the resolution phrase happens whether the singer sings A_AB or ABAB. So nearly all styles of 4-line verses use Am E Am E, G-C E, G-C E. And nearly all 3 line verses use Am, G-C E, G-C E. And Joaquin 3 you missed in the other topic is unique, Am-E, E-Am, G-C E, (G-C E).



mark indigo -> RE: **Learning CANTE together** (Sep. 20 2022 14:45:01)

quote:

Excellent stuff. I saw that guy before but I like those transcriptions. The only issue is he should transpose them to the key the guitar plays in (at least) or for simplicity everything in E Phrygian (no sharps or flats for comparative ease at grasping likes and differences). I am assuming he transcribed the stuff himself, and if so, it was very well done.

do they really sing all those notes? no wonder i can't sing along![:D]

i have always found it easier to catch and hear the melodies of letras when they are sung by a dance teacher or accompanying guitarist than when the cantaor/a comes in and sings it properly, I guess they are singing a simpler, less ornate version of the basic melody? I'm not talking about the "box" structure thing, but the actual melodic line itself.



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