This is very specific, but can someone recommend a nylon guitar teacher in Boston/Cambridge who can instruct on how to play Argentine tango solo or accompaniment? Thanks
If not, any recommended flamenco / classical guitar teachers in that area?
Don't know any tangueros there, but for flamenco there's our old friend Anthony "El Tiriti" Tran. Don't know if he teaches, but he definitely knows how to play.
I don't think he's been on here for a while but you can track him down pretty easily on the interwebs.
This is simultaneously super specific and too vague, Ramzi :-)
Do you want to learn to play Argentine tangos in their proper form, i.e. not sounding like habaneras as classical guitar culture does them?
Also, do you include valses and milongas too, not just tango tangos?
Are you looking for proper arrangements then?
Or is it more like a flamenco-like improvisational accompaniment (but in proper tango style)?
Also it seems to matter what the size and composition of the orchestra (if not soloing) would be - duets, trios, quartets, more, and what type of instruments - this would affect the way you would do your bit within that group as your playing has to fit within and complement their sonic layers and timbres.
For solo arrangements I would recommend Cacho Tirao's - he was one of Piazzolla's guitarists but very accomplished classical guitar player too and, to my ear, seems to have "the right touch" when arranging - both Piazzolla compositions and old tango favourites. (Or if it is the habanera style you seek for tango tangos, classical guitar literature has lots of sheet music; also old printed music for piano)
For milonga campera style (the slow 3-3-2), Piazzolla's milongas are all in that style. Or else for the faster urban milongas (the ones you usually hear at traditional gatherings) there are some arrangements; probably Tirao has some again - Milonga de Mis Amores, for example.
If it is for solo, imagine you have the sheet music you are happy with, what specific instruction do you envision a teacher would provide?
Sorry to be curious (you know my tango background) without being able to provide a recommendation, but maybe also answering questions like these may help clarify your request?
Did you just ask for a tango teacher in the general section of foroflamenco?
Be right back. Need to go get my pitchfork.
[:D][8D]
His asking is actually a compliment to all foro members for its implicit assumption that they are resourceful people with a wide variety of interests and expertise [:D]
Oh, okay, so you just mentioned flamenco in the first post in order to get your tangos into the General section? You sneaky bar steward.
Ready Piwin?
No, because I honestly think that it's best to have a teacher who legit plays Argentine tango music (solo or accomp) on a nylon string guitar to teach someone this form of playing. However, like kitarist mentioned, if this is not available, then there is Argentine tango repertoire for classical guitarists, but since I am a flamenco guitarist, I would prefer to have someone learn and develop a flamenco technique / style of playing while covering that same sheet music because I feel that a flamenco background would serve one better in playing Argentine tango if an authentic Argentine tango background cannot be found (in a teacher). I feel that Argentine tango music and flamenco music have a lot of things in common.
Konstantin: I saw Cacho Tirao play at a festival in France in 1974. Hadn't heard of him before, but I remember it as one of the best performances I have seen. He really blew me away, man.
I feel that Argentine tango music and flamenco music have a lot of things in common.
Where do you see the commonalities in Argentine tango music and flamenco, Ramzi? In the guitar and other instruments used in tango? In the singing? In the dance? If any or all, what do they have in common? Where do you see them intersecting?
I'm not trying to start a debate on the subject, but I have listened to both genres for many years, and I don't find they have much in common. Nevertheless, I may have missed something and am willing to entertain a different point of view.
Where do you see the commonalities in Argentine tango music and flamenco, Ramzi? In the guitar and other instruments used in tango? In the singing? In the dance? If any or all, what do they have in common? Where do you see them intersecting?
I was hoping you would voice your own thoughts on the subject, Ramzi, since you put the idea out there. It would have meant more than a YouTube video of some "Portland Tango King" named Alex Krebs. But I assume you are in agreement with Krebs.
Where do you see the commonalities in Argentine tango music and flamenco, Ramzi? In the guitar and other instruments used in tango? In the singing? In the dance? If any or all, what do they have in common? Where do you see them intersecting?
I can't hear much either i.e. outside of fusion, experimentation or individual interpretations; nor do I understand this guy's vague reference to duende and the pain of lovers' separation, as evidence.
Perhaps this is considering the 'ida y vuelta' of rumba and tango, but I thought the relationship with tango Latino has been dismissed by flamenco academics?
Or do you mean general cultural similarities rather than structural or technical? I feel the same way about the blues of the Deep South and flamenco, for example.
Just my opinion, of course, and would be interested in different views, but I just don't hear it or see as you do.
My take on it is that ( not sure how much validity it has )[8|] it has that macho and aggressive approach to playing. Ok, that is my doctoral thesis.[:D]
I am not sure what Ramzi means but in terms of traditional tango Argentino, man, the orquesta tipica of 4-5 bandoneons, 4-5 violins, a contrabajo and a piano, the musicians were monsters in terms of technique and sense of rhythm - maybe this is to me what is similar to flamenco.
Here's a video of 'Loca' - interpreted by the orchestra of Juan D"Arienzo. Now he was a very nice guy who was beloved by his players and you can see he also has a showmanship streak in him - he does here an exaggerated directing of everything - every note, accent - including the violin solo toward the end - for the cameras; having so much fun.
But listen to how tight the bandoneons are, how the band has these musical and dynamics layers on top of a rhythmic structure which is rock-steady. How the emotional content is overflowing and the play with contrasting elements - how it enhances that feeling.
When I first saw this in the early 2000 I was deep into researching tango music history and seeing this idol of mine and his orquesta in this performance just brought tears to my eyes. What a character! What a performance! What times these were...
I don't mean to go off topic but wanted to post an example of playing a section in a milonga called taquito militar. I am playing it in a flamenco sort of way i guess. I think it sounds better with this approach than any other way. just my humble opinion.
This book was very helpful to me for thinking about flamenco
Thanks, I accept its point that the blues is not within the sole ownership of the Delta but the call/response of African slaves in the fields, reinforced by gospel singing at its roots, resonates with me.
The itinerancy of the blues, post-civil war, and the travails of the flamencos - in times of hardship and oppression - allow me to draw some parallels, whether or not, that is really the case [8|]
Flamenco (for me) is full of sadness, loss, poverty and defiance. I tend to think of flamenco as I have seen and heard it in bulerías, soléares and siguiriyas.
I identify the Argentinian tango more with a Buenos Aires café society of club orchestras and a stylised dance of seduction. I don't respond that well to romantic, stylised flamenco either.
I identify the Argentinian tango more with a Buenos Aires café society of club orchestras and a stylised dance of seduction. I don't respond that well to romantic, stylised flamenco either.
Ramzi: it's not much for advice, but I'd just ask the musicians next time you go to a milonga with a live ensemble. If there are guitarists around who play in that style, they'd be the ones to know.
Considering Tango is a Latino music style and form, not unlike all the styles of salsa from the Americas and varias styles from South America, GUITAR as a specific instrument is not so important. In fact you can see by the orchestra Kitarist linked piano is more the thing, not guitar. Of course guitar works, but your concept that there is some “proper tango guitar technique” for some students I think is skewed. Likewise you don’t find proper bachata merengue calypso or whatever guitar...it’s more about the ensemble as a whole. Now in Brazil or the Andes you have guitar used of course, Brazil having perhaps the most specific GUITISTIC style characteristics one would need a proper teacher for. Since were talking spanish guitar I think of Brazil style, though specific, can be lumped in with SOUTH AMERICAN guitar style vs classical or flamenco specific techniques.
What I mean is that the technique used for South American guitar styles, be it Brazilian, Andean, Tango...and even stuff done in Central America and Mexico with the guitar such as Mariachi, is basically a form of rhythmic classical guitar technique. THe rhythmic aspect is in the strumming/muting and chordal play, and the classical part is the melodic lines done with pulgar and naily tirando plucking. I see it fairly univeral with lots of over lap regardless of the region. The tone produced by the technique I am talking about mainly. The specific differences (forms and styles from different countries) come down to the very very subtle nuances of rhythm interpretation, quite elusive to learn due to the national pride that is taken by musicians that come from each country. For example there is very little difference between certain Andean 6/8 forms like Chakaera (sp?), and Mariachi type 6/8....however you can’t substitute one style for the other without criticism. What I have noticed is that a lot of guys that specialize in South American guitar are good at distinguishing Brazilian from Paraguayan from Andes from Milongas and Tangos etc....so what I recommend is that you find someone that is specializing in South American guitar of any specific genre. For example a Brazilian guitarist will certainly be familiar with some Andes and Tango etc, and you won’t have the problem there that I think you are trying to avoid, is the Classical guitar Technique guy not showing the correct FEEL for the music.
Ricardo, look at this guy (this particular video, and other similar ones of his).
I guess when I said "technique" what I meant was everything that makes playing like this guy sound legit the way he is making it sound. Part of that comes from the right hand per se, part of it comes from the left hand per se, and part of it comes from understanding the rhythm, harmony, and feel of the music.
I think someone who is an expert in South American guitar playing (of not just AT, but others), may be able to fill the role that I am envisioning, but someone who has never played tango and say is an expert of chacarera or mariachi music may not be the right fit. It's definitely a "splitting hairs" approach on my part with what I am asking for and how I am perceiving it.
I tried taking lessons on Skype with Matias, and despite my being OK rhythmically and with flamenco technique, it really became clear to me that for me to be able to sound like him (left hand, right hand, rhythm, harmony) was going to take more work than I thought, and I figured if someone aims to specifically become well-versed in the Matias style of playing, then it makes more sense to find a "Matias" that is there in person, rather than on Skype...
Also, I agree that guitar is not "the" instrument for AT, but the person on whose behalf I am asking for recommendations on teachers - they are interested in guitar and not bandoneon...
This book of his (Matias Zloto's) seems very interesting - if very thin. He highlights a few very important stylistic elements of accompaniment - I would say they follow a mixture of bandoneon and contrabajo accompaniment characteristics - tinted towards Pugliese-style interpretations, but that's understandable due to the that style's popularity with contemporary tango orchestra revivals since the late 1980s. You can't cover all characteristic orchestra styles in one go.
In a way it seems relatively easy to acquire the right 'sound' if one focuses just on accompaniment (and leaves the melodic lines to a violin, say - at least for the time being). Just the marcato, arrastres, rebotes and sincopes and you are basically there.
Based on the table of contents, it seems these are covered in not much detail, so not much more content than in the videos already on youtube covering these stylistic characteristics.
I've never heard of anyone else doing that kind of serious thinking and systematic work to bring the guitar (back) into a tango ensemble. You might have to hold on to him and steer his teaching to the stylistic basics (as opposed to trying to learn some specific song arrangements especially as solo guitar).
P.S. Hmm, maybe I am just showing I've been out of the loop for a few years - I found a couple of other publications that also seem very good, and with more detail:
1. "Metodo de Guitarra tango" by Julian Graciano. see this for a Table of Contents)
2. "Como Tocar Tango en Guitarra" by Mariano Botto. see this for a Table of Contents)
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The itinerancy of the blues, post-civil war, and the travails of the flamencos - in times of hardship and oppression - allow me to draw some parallels, whether or not, that is really the case
Flamenco (for me) is full of sadness, loss, poverty and defiance. I tend to think of flamenco as I have seen and heard it in bulerías, soléares and siguiriyas.
I identify the Argentinian tango more with a Buenos Aires café society of club orchestras and a stylised dance of seduction. I don't respond that well to romantic, stylised flamenco either.
I agree with your above-cited observations, Simon. That both the blues and flamenco are often rooted in hardship, oppression, and life's travails does not mean they have anything in common musically. They have little if anything in common musically, just as flamenco has little if anything in common with Argentine Tango. Argentine Tango is a very different musical form with a far different provenance than flamenco. One might as well find commonalities between flamenco and Merle Haggard's country classic "Working Man Blues" because it deals with hardship and life's travails. They don't equate.
That does not mean one cannot create a "flamenco version" of standards from other genres. For example, long ago I once attended a performance by Carlos Montoya in which he played a "flamenco version" of "St. Louis Blues." (He also recorded it on a couple of albums.) It was interesting and clever, but no one would ever equate "St. Louis Bues" with flamenco as a result, or, for that matter, Carlos's version of "St. Louis Blues" with authentic flamenco. Same with "fusion" versions of other genres. That does not make for "commonality."
I am always open to different points of view, but I have seen nothing in this thread that offers any evidence that flamenco and Argentine Tango have a lot (or anything) in common.
