Solera Flamenca guitars? (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - Solera Flamenca guitars?: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=310632



Message

rombsix -> Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 25 2018 3:16:51)




estebanana -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 25 2018 6:28:14)

Oh cool! Another grind house factory! Did you see the Esteve poster on the wall?



Piwin -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 25 2018 8:27:35)

Fine, Alberto makes nice guitars. But can he make a guitar that looks simultaneously like male genitals and female hindquarters?
That's the true measure of craftsmanship.



Echi -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 25 2018 9:00:43)

Estebana is right.
These are just Juan Hernandez guitars and presumably very close to the standard of the ordinary Juan Hernandez flamenco guitars.
Obviously they cannot be personally made by Alberto Hernandez: they are are guitars made in the Juan Hernandez guitar factory under Alberto’s guidance.
The left over is marketing, as common.
Juan Hernandez is a Valencian company run by a luthier grown in Esteve and specialised in studio and conservatorio guitars.
You can compare them with Esteve, Camps etc. not with a luthier made guitar.
Going straight to the point, Imho the Sanchis Lopez Solea or the Valeriano Bernal’s are better flamenco guitars for the money in the same price range.
The thing is that shops like Solera often need to offer an entry level guitar for that price range.
Mundo Flamenco did the same thing (a studio branded guitar) with the Hermanos Camps, Guitar salon with the Córdoba line etc. .
Sanchis Carpio, up to 2000 was the main provider of these kind of studio branded guitars: you may find Sanchis guitars with labels of Postigo, Casa Parramon, Barba etc, but then they decided it was not profitable anymore and left room in the market.
Coming back to Alberto Hernandez: good factory guitars plus the marketing of Solera.



rombsix -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 25 2018 13:20:42)

quote:

But can he make a guitar that looks simultaneously like male genitals and female hindquarters?
That's the true measure of craftsmanship.


[:D][8D]



BarkellWH -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 25 2018 13:34:58)

He has the chutzpah to call it "Homenaje a Marcelo Barbero."

Bill



estebanana -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 25 2018 14:08:12)

Bill in my shop we say 'chutzguasa' - he had the chutzguasa.

What it is is what it is. I've seen a fair number of pretty nice Bernals.



RobJe -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 25 2018 14:35:32)

quote:

can he make a guitar that looks simultaneously like male genitals and female hindquarters? That's the true measure of craftsmanship.



Time to remind everyone what a real flamenco guitar and its case looks like.
• Shape not far from the guitars of Santos
• Box made of spruce and cypress
• Pegs
• No fancy purfling
• 2-piece white golpeador
• One expertly repaired crack (a work of art in itself)
• Damaged rosette with colours running into each other
• A couple of cigarette burns
• Sweat marks on the side where the arm rests, on the back and on the neck

Case made mainly of plywood with:
• Fabric glued to the outside
• Broken handle
• Thin red felt inside (guitar should rattle when case is shaken)

Interior storage box containing:
• Wooden cejilla
• Emery boards
• Tube of Pegamento Imedio
• Pack Savarez Red Card strings and some used strings
• Packet of dried salted beans

If possible there should be a letter from the luthier guaranteeing that the guitar was his own work and made totally by hand. A useful addition is a small bottle of sweat also signed (before the days of DNA testing but hey it gives me ideas about solving some of the great orange mysteries)

Rob



JasonM -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 25 2018 14:45:14)

I don't really see why everyone's panties are getting all bunched up over this. At least they are being candid and stating that these are factory guitars. I would think by putting their endorsement on these guitars they would be risking their reputation. Maybe they are decent for the buck maybe not...

Rombsix will give us his impressions when he buys one.



Echi -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 25 2018 15:07:38)

Hey, in the video Jordi (the chief in Solera) clearly and honestly states that the guitars are just ordinary Hernandez guitars.
He says that what makes them exclusive is the brand “Solera flamenco Barbero Hommage” (which means the guitars have the “Barbero” bracing pattern and rosette design).
Btw, I see nothing wrong in selling a custom series guitars and I’ve nothing against this shop.
My thing is just to separate marketing from common sense truth and make clear that we are speaking of entry level guitars.
The guitars of Juan Hernandez are not famous in the flamenco world but for being good studio guitars.

Zavaleta’s a couple of years ago introduced a similar product: a Sanchis Lopez Solea guitar with exclusive Barbero bracing pattern and personalised rosette.
The Barbero bracing pattern in itself cannot do miracles: the Sanchis guitar always plays like a Sanchis guitar and presumably it’s the same with Hernandez.



rombsix -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 26 2018 0:05:08)

quote:

Rombsix will give us his impressions when he buys one.


[:D]



estebanana -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 26 2018 0:30:32)

Rob's concept of a flamenco guitar is right on. Everything else is rubbish.



Leñador -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 26 2018 5:01:41)

quote:

Rob's concept of a flamenco guitar is right on. Everything else is rubbish.

Yup! My Stephen Faulk guitar arrived to me with every single one of those bullet points! [:D]



estebanana -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 26 2018 7:49:44)

Yes but have you dripped enough beer and sweat on it yet?



jalalkun -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 26 2018 8:02:14)

so a flamenco guitar has to be mistreated to become a true flamenco guitar...I'm taking notes folks/faulks

regarding the video: don't see anything wrong with that, they're not saying that these are premium handmade guitars but factory guitars on a budget. transparent marketing is the best marketing IMO.



estebanana -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 26 2018 11:55:14)

quote:

regarding the video: don't see anything wrong with that, they're not saying that these are premium handmade guitars but factory guitars on a budget. transparent marketing is the best marketing IMO.


It's another slick video with tool candy woodworking shots that are dumb cliche' about 'Old Worldness' which is really not true. And all that is ok, if not a bit overdone. But saying it's an homage to Barbero is a bit much. There's a lot of overdetermined usage of famous names that many makers use and abuse to signify off of. There are too many fake Reyes' and other guitars. When in doubt say you're making a famous masters guitar and heavily signify off of it. Some makers copy because that's how you learn and you say I'm making a such & such model because I want to understand this thing or that thing, but some makers abuse this and base a whole career on using another makers name. It's ok to copy and learn, but after you've made your 50th guitar if you are still identifying your name with someone other than a person you studied with it's bordering in sinverguenza action.

I made some Barbero inspired guitars to learn and I got something from it, but I would never presume to be good enough to make an homage to Barbero, and there are less than fingers in your right hand of those who deserve to proclaim it. And, and, if you get Barbero, you know he comes right out of Santos and that the famous drawings of Barbero's work are extremely close to Santos. The well known 1951 drawing is almost like a 1920 Santos I know of. The difference is slightly different plantilla, a bit smaller- 1/4 inch shorter, and slightly shallower. So really what they are doing is making a Santos.

The best thing they are doing is not having the guitars made in China. They're Spaniards, and I respect that, but for every factory there are twenty guys in Spain who build well and you'll never hear of them unless you knock boots with them on the street where they have a small shop. Most of the time those guys have the pride to declare this is my guitar, not Reyes' guitar. If you want a Reyes go see them.

I'm sick of the NAMM show and the networking and BS, you just make guitars- You're either a maker or your not.



Echi -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 26 2018 12:48:28)

Maybe I’m wrong, but the commercial idea is openly to sell an exclusive model of a Juan Hernandez guitar. The exclusivity is in the bracing, rosette and headstock. I don’t think this as an homage but maybe they guess someone will be willing to pay some extra money for these features.

quote:

well known 1951 drawing is almost like a 1920 Santos I know of.

The Santos plan made by David Merrin suggests many analogies in plantilla and bracing.
My 2 cents are that the sound commonly associated with Barbero is different from what you associate with Santos though.
In my understanding the latter Barbero could use a thicker top, graduated differently. I cannot state it with confidence though.



gbv1158 -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 26 2018 16:35:23)

quote:

There's a lot of overdetermined usage of famous names that many makers use and abuse to signify off of.


that's all!

ciao, giambattista



estebanana -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 26 2018 22:57:56)

quote:

In my understanding the latter Barbero could use a thicker top, graduated differently. I cannot state it with confidence though.


Some cooks make potaje with white beans and some garbanzos, some cooks use more potatoes and some put in kale at the end. It's all potaje if it uses pimenton as a base.



jalalkun -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 27 2018 0:37:41)

you're absolutely right, but the sad truth is that the economic system likes to grab the attention of people that have little to no idea about a certain topic and hype them up about something which is virtually nonexistent. they don't care about making guitars if they're having machines build them in the first place no? so that's why they'll bother being bold about paying homage to one of the greatest builders with a mere factory made instrument without batting an eye. if mentioning barbero means more $$ then they'll seize this opportunity and exploit it. it's an extremely effective marketing strategy and they don't care if it bugs you hearing about it or not, cuz they'll do it either way and they'll get richer off of it either way.

money is dirty and is often times hard to get when you play clean and honest. but expressing art has never been about money, so that's why somebody who wants to create art certainly won't buy a solera flamenca guitar on a budget.



Piwin -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 27 2018 7:24:35)

quote:

but expressing art has never been about money, so that's why somebody who wants to create art certainly won't buy a solera flamenca guitar on a budget.


That's pretty harsh man. Sounds like you're saying those who can't afford a luthier-made guitar don't want to create art...



joselito_fletan -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 27 2018 7:42:57)

quote:

but expressing art has never been about money, so that's why somebody who wants to create art certainly won't buy a solera flamenca guitar on a budget.


That is pretty harsh. Now if you excuse me, gonna go and cry in the corner with my 300 dollar takamine.

Oh yah tell this guy he's no artist [8D] "Con tres cuerdas pichchita!!!!"




jalalkun -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 27 2018 12:51:31)

excuse me, that was kinda harsh i admit. i had something else in mind [:D] of course the guitar never makes the artist, i too have a 260 euro höfner guitar [:D] i meant that somebody who wants a fulfilling and inspiring instrument is probably gonna go for an instrument that somebody put his mind and soul into building it. something that was built for the sole sake of making money isn't like something that has been made with a lot of love and heart, even if - ironically - the latter often times is the more expensive one. just like cooking. language barriers are horrible and my head makes 30 jumps but i always tell my pointe and not my thought process [:D]

and i would NEVER tell this guy he's not an artist, i have too much respect for it [:D]



BarkellWH -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 27 2018 13:04:14)

quote:

money is dirty and is often times hard to get when you play clean and honest.


Money is neither dirty nor clean. Money itself is neutral and is simply a medium of exchange. Whether one has a lot of money or not, it is how money is acquired, how money is used, and what one does with it that might be called "dirty" or "clean."

Bill



RobJe -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 27 2018 14:34:39)

OK - three things

• A homage to Barbero
• A claim to replicate the cosmetic details of a Barbero in a factory guitar
• A claim to replicate the sound and feel of a Barbero in a factory guitar

The first is OK.

The second is a common marketing trick. I don’t like it much. For some luthiers it would against their beliefs and values to launch a “Barbero” range.

The third (not claimed in the video) is unacceptable because most guitarists have never played the real thing and would be at the mercy of the seller.

Rob



RobJe -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 27 2018 15:01:29)

quote:

so a flamenco guitar has to be mistreated to become a true flamenco guitar


Interesting issue.

In the case of second-hand guitars finished in FP I have found sweat marks to be a reliable indicator of quality.

Sweat marks might indicate

• The guitar has been regularly played (there are plenty of used guitars that pass from owner to disappointed owner only stopping in their life’s journey if an ignorant collector attracted by the label steps in.
• The guitar has been played in very hot environments eg under stage lights, in a club etc. It might indicate that the guitar was so good that a knowledgeable professional chose it and used it.
• There is a strong chance that the guitar hasn’t been stripped of its original finish

Its always worked for me.

Rob



Piwin -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 27 2018 15:23:31)

quote:

i had something else in mind


Yeah I kind of figured, but my inner French socialist just had to pounce! [8D]



Echi -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 27 2018 16:33:13)

quote:

• There is a strong chance that the guitar hasn’t been stripped of its original finish

This what I consider the main danger as it happened to me at least twice.
Unfortunately it's not that rare and some shops are accustomed to do the same.
Once it happened to me to buy online a second hand guitar just to discover it had been clearly re-varnished. Fortunately the shop took it back.
In a different occasion a friend of mine bought a new guitar: he didn't have all the money so he paid with some money plus his really worn Conde: a month later the shop could sell that very Conde but completely revarnished for a very high price....
The fact is that in order to make the guitar appearing so perfect, the top must have been thinned down a lot.



joselito_fletan -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 27 2018 20:18:36)

quote:

excuse me, that was kinda harsh i admit. i had something else in mind of course the guitar never makes the artist


No Problem [;)] I was just pulling your leg a bit.



Ricardo -> RE: Solera Flamenca guitars? (Jan. 31 2018 5:49:08)

I played it and give my opinion on the “barbero” guitar in this thread:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=310628&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1



Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET