RE: Ferdinand (Full Version)

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Paul Magnussen -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 8 2018 22:47:54)

quote:

Francophones say "Von-cou-VAIR" and "To-rhon-TO" because that's what works in French. Either side would/should adjust their pronunciation accordingly when they visit the other.


Another trap, since English is eating other languages like The Blob, is to assume unconsciously that Franglais words are pronounced as they would be in English. When I worked in France in 1966, for example, I found that the Beatles were (somewhat ironically ) Beatless.

So, for instance, I’ve just taken the precaution of e-mailing a friend in Córdoba as to how the Spanish pronounce iPhone. In such cases a dictionary is useless.



BarkellWH -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 8 2018 22:54:15)

quote:

quote:

I have mentioned him in a previous post, but I believe Robert Hughes nailed it when he described himself as an "elitist."

"I am completely an elitist, in the cultural but emphatically not the social sense. I prefer the good to the bad, the articulate to the mumbling, the aesthetically developed to the merely primitive, and full to partial consciousness. I love the spectacle of skill, whether it is an expert gardener at work, or a good carpenter chopping dovetails. I don't think stupid or ill-read people are as good to be with as wise and fully literate ones. I would rather watch a great tennis player than a mediocre one."


I like it. Could you provide a source and a year, please? I’d like to add it to my quotations file.


Robert Hughes, as you probably know, was a very well-known art and cultural critic who pulled no punches in his essays and books. The quote I cited above comes from his autobiography entitled, "THINGS I DIDN'T KNOW, A Memoir," published in 2006. It can also be found in "THE SPECTACLE OF SKILL, Selected Writings of Robert Hughes," published in 2015.

Bill



BarkellWH -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 8 2018 23:19:52)

quote:

The one thing where I do squawk is the tendency of certain people to try and pronounce foreign names and words according to the pronunciation in the original tongue. Not because it is elitist, but because it is bad linguistics.


I was assigned to the American Embassy in Tegucigalpa, Honduras, arriving in April 1979, just three months before the Sandanistas overthrew the Somoza regime and took over Nicaragua. After the Sandanistas imposed their Marxist regime in Nicaragua, many younger (and a few older) American leftists went to Nicaragua to "participate" in the building of a Marxist paradise, their heads filled with revolutionary "idealism."

In the Embassy, we were heavily involved in tracking arms that flowed from Cuba to Nicaragua, and working with the Honduran government to block attempts to smuggle the arms across the Honduran border and make their way to El Salvador and the FMLN Marxist guerrillas. Many times some of the American leftists would come to Tegucigalpa and the Embassy from Nicaragua wanting to renew their American passport or some other service available to American citizens abroad. Invariably they brought with them a sense of "moral superiority" and a clear sense that the American Embassy (from whom they were requesting a service!) was the enemy. Among ourselves, we referred to them as "revolutionary tourists" and "Sandalistas."

Most of them spoke only English or a very rudimentary form of high school Spanish. But one thing all of them had in common was they pronounced Nicaragua as "Nee.kah.RAH.Gwah," no doubt establishing in their own minds their revolutionary credentials and the authenticity of their motives.

Bill



Estevan -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 9 2018 1:54:21)

quote:

When I worked in France in 1966, for example, I found that the Beatles were (somewhat ironically ) Beatless.

And in Spain the Stones are "los Rolling".

Another great piece of Spanglish is "el making of", in the context of films. The best thing about it is that "making of" is treated as a single noun, so it is followed by "de", as in "El making of de [name of film]".



kitarist -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 9 2018 4:59:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

Also weird is how within Canada, an officially-bilingual country, the English-speaking provinces pronounce 'Quebec' and 'Montreal' as if they have no idea how the French speakers do it. Why "Koo-eh-bek" and "MonT-real'?


Neither the [e] in Québec nor the [ɔ̃] in Montréal exist in English, as far as I know so even if they got the consonants right they still wouldn't be pronouncing it à la française. My guess is that they're just pronouncing based on how an English-speaker would decipher those spellings. Qu... [kw] as in quibble, quizz, etc. and there's no reason for the t to be silent in English there.


That's true but what I meant is that they all are aware how it is pronounced by the Quebecois yet reliably pronounce it quite differently.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin
quote:

Speaking of which, it seems like, at least historically, butchering local place names even as they are adopted has been employed as another tool to convey disrespect and insouciance. For example, there is no good reason why so many place names in Canada are anglicized butchered versions of the original first nations names; some are being changed back now and it is clear there would have been no difficulty in pronouncing the original.


I don't think I'd feel comfortable enough to support that statement, at least not across the board.[...] Add to that that most of the European settlers were not trained linguists and I think there's plenty of room for other possibilities other than "they butchered the name out of disrespect".


Good points. It seems to me that it must have been the case at least from time to time/at some places. Doesn't have to be conscious - carelessness and lack of curiosity (I did mention 'insouciance' next to 'disrespect' in my original statement) for what would have been considered inferior peoples would give the same result.



Piwin -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 9 2018 12:44:25)

quote:

That's true but what I meant is that they all are aware how it is pronounced by the Quebecois yet reliably pronounce it quite differently.


And that is perfectly fine. In fact it's for the best. See the quote Paul gave us from Fowler's Modern English Usage.

I get what you're saying and the tie you're trying to make with the fact that native populations were considered inferior to Europeans. I'm just not sure it's the right way to view it. The French call the German city Aachen "Aix-la-Chapelle", Andalucia "Andalousie", etc. These are just a few examples of assimilating names into one's own language. The point being that this linguistic ploy is used even when there is no judgment on the superiority/inferiority of a given people.

I just don't think there's any reason to necessarily base names on the names in another language. Americans call themselves "Americans". The Spanish call them "United Staters". That doesn't bother me in the least. The Germans call themselves "Deutsch". The English call them "Germans" and the French call them "allemands". So goes it. By that token, I also have no problem translating all the flamenco terms into another language. I don't think there's anything offensive about it. Singing, dancing, guitar, clapping, fan strumming, amii strumming, etc. etc. I think we stick with those terms for the same reason a lot of IT people use English words even if it's not their mother tongue: they have to deal with people and content that is in English so it's just easier for them to use the words in English instead of translating them all the time.



Ricardo -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 9 2018 13:49:02)

quote:

I'm not sure I get the distinction you're trying to make. What's wrong with rasgwado or sunnykitty?


If you can’t say it, you probably can’t play it either. I have yet to meet someone that has good soniquete that can’t pronounce it more or less like a flamingo player from Grenade-uh would. And the sloppy prounounciation of the word “Rasguedo” is not surprising to hear when same guitarist weakly jangles a chord out of rhythm. (See Cun-chair-toe Dee Orange juice)



Piwin -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 9 2018 14:05:41)

quote:

If you can’t say it, you probably can’t play it either


Got it, thanks.



kitarist -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 9 2018 15:49:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

That's true but what I meant is that they all are aware how it is pronounced by the Quebecois yet reliably pronounce it quite differently.


And that is perfectly fine. In fact it's for the best. See the quote Paul gave us from Fowler's Modern English Usage.


What quote - about "begging the question" - i.e. assuming the question? Not sure how it connects here. I am not presenting some grand unified theory. Or at least I was hoping that was evident from all the hedging I did; just thinking aloud.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin
So goes it. By that token, I also have no problem translating all the flamenco terms into another language. I don't think there's anything offensive about it. Singing, dancing, guitar, clapping, fan strumming, amii strumming, etc. etc. I think we stick with those terms for the same reason a lot of IT people use English words even if it's not their mother tongue: they have to deal with people and content that is in English so it's just easier for them to use the words in English instead of translating them all the time.


It does not seem right re: flamenco. In your particular example above, (some of) the replacement terms are too general to refer to what the flamenco terms are referring to - so in this case the substitution amounts to deletion. Maybe you can find better examples - like what they do in France with computer terms - but I think there is an asymmetric aspect to this so it matters if the substitution is done by a dominant (in a popular sense; not talking about historical inferiority/superiority notions now) culture vs. if it is done to a (term from a) dominant culture. So there is a more general issue present.



Escribano -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 9 2018 15:51:32)

quote:

And the sloppy prounounciation of the word “Rasguedo” is not surprising to hear when same guitarist weakly jangles a chord out of rhythm


Raa-hay-yoh en Grana' [8|]



Piwin -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 9 2018 16:45:56)

Sorry, I should've been more specific. This quote:

“To say a French word in the middle of an English sentence exactly as it would be said by a Frenchman in a French sentence is a feat demanding an acrobatic mouth; the muscles have to be suddenly adjusted to a performance of a different nature, and then as suddenly recalled to the normal state. It is a feat that should not be attempted. The greater its success as a tour de force, the greater its failure as a step in the conversational progress; for your collocutor, aware that he could not have done it himself, has his attention distracted whether he admires or is humiliated.”

Fowler’s Modern English Usage, 2nd edition (again)


As for the flamenco terms, like you I'm just thinking out loud, so sure, there are, I'm sure, better ways of putting it. But I'm not worried at all about it being too general (I don't know a single noun in any language whose meaning isn't contextual - singing isn't cante? ok, but if you're talking within the context of flamenco, you'll know very well what I'm talking about if I say "singing"). Beyond that, the thing is that any translation implies deletion of many of the underlying cultural subtleties. If we think we should say "abanico" instead of "fan strumming" or whatever alternative we could find, then we should also say "coche" and not "car", "tierra" and not "earth", etc. etc. Because I can guarantee you that, although both words refer to the "same thing", the mental construct that comes to mind when an American in the US thinks "car" and the mental construct that comes to mind when a Spaniard in Spain thinks "coche" are not the same. To me that sort of concern that something might be "lost in translation" is a waste of time. Some things are lost some things are gained. But there is no solution to it. It's akin to people wondering whether the whole universe might be some sort of illusion or projection. Fun to think about, but it's not a workable question. It doesn't lead anywhere. In short, of course by translating the terms I'm deleting the original. I'm happily deleting it, destroying every last bit of cultural meaning the word might carry and I building it up with something new, something that abides by the rules of my language and my culture. It's cultural appropriation at it's best. And it's a beautiful thing.



kitarist -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 9 2018 17:03:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin
If we think we should say "abanico" instead of "fan strumming" or whatever alternative we could find, then we should also say "coche" and not "car", "tierra" and not "earth", etc. etc. Because I can guarantee you that, although both words refer to the "same thing", the mental construct that comes to mind when an American in the US thinks "car" and the mental construct that comes to mind when a Spaniard in Spain thinks "coche" are not the same.


I get your argument but where I don't agree with it is that it seems premised on all or nothing application. However, language adoption vs. deletion and substitution does not have to be applied that way. You can adopt 'abanico' and that does not have to necessitate adoption of 'coche' or 'tierra'. This might also be because you are dropping specificity as you construct the examples.



Piwin -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 9 2018 18:02:33)

quote:

I get your argument but where I don't agree with it is that it seems premised on all or nothing application


I'm painting in very broad brushes and being a bit emphatic I'll admit [;)]

The point I'm trying to make is that you don't lose any more of the underlying meaning of a word if you invent a translation in your own language or if you just use the original word. Even if you choose to say "abanico" in English, the word "abanico" used in English has already become a translation "of itself", i.e. a translation of the Spanish word "abanico" and all the underlying meaning it carries in that language and that culture. In general, using the original word has no more benefit than using a translation, semantically speaking. It's an arbitrary choice. (a choice that becomes less arbitrary once one of these, either the original or the "translation", has already become adopted in the language, i.e. there's already a standard usage). So of course it doesn't have to be either/or, all or nothing, but, either way, the meaning will be slightly different.

I have no problem at all bringing in new words from other languages. I do object to bringing foreign sounds and pronunciations into another language. It's as if you're listening to an arrangement for guitar of a piece that was originally meant for piano. If it is well done, there will be places where the guitar sticks closely to what the piano does, others where it takes more distance. There will be deletions, additions and many distortions. But what I don't want to hear is that arrangement for guitar with, right in the middle, just one note played by the piano. That's why, though I understand what Ricardo was saying, even if I'm perfectly capable of rolling my Rs the Spanish way, if I'm speaking English or French, I'm not going to use that sound. You don't have to do something just because you are capable of doing it.


[:D]

Plus, I like the idea that there is a Montpellier in France and a Montpelier in the US and both the Americans and the French are pronouncing at least one of those the "wrong" way.



Escribano -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 9 2018 18:19:55)

quote:

Plus, I like the idea that there is a Montpellier in France and a Montepelier in the US and both the Americans and the French are pronouncing at least one of those the "wrong" way.


You had me worried there for a while, but having lived in the South of France, it appears I am pronouncing it properly. [8|]

https://forvo.com/word/montpellier/



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 9 2018 18:24:33)

quote:

I like the idea that there is a Montpellier in France and a Montepelier in the US and both the Americans and the French are pronouncing at least one of those the "wrong" way.


Not I: that sort of thing creates ambiguity, forcing Americans to say things like “London, England” (when I was little, I thought it was to prove that they they knew where it was).

I often don’t know at first, when Americans are talking about Cambridge, whether they mean the one in Cambridgeshire, on the river Cam*, or the one in Massachusetts — especially since they’re both university towns.

All place-names in the US should immediately be changed back to the Native American ones (correctly pronounced). Except for clearly unique ones, that is, such as Moose Droppings, Iowa.

*Do they even have a River Cam in Massachusetts?



Piwin -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 9 2018 18:46:00)

[:D] I still have to look it up whenever I come across the name Montpelier, Vermont. Manpilliar. Mountpeleer. gaah...



Leñador -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 9 2018 21:12:43)

quote:

https://forvo.com/word/montpellier/


The english pronunciation sounds horrible, I wouldn't have pronounced it exactly like that......



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 10 2018 1:38:48)

It didn't take long teaching math at Louisiana State University for me to learn that there are a large number of pronunciations of "New Orleans." They range from "Noo Orleenz" to "N'yallins," depending on which part of the state the speaker is from. While speaking English, people from Acadia often say "Orleans" in a Cajun French accent, but at this remove I don't remember hearing "Nouveau" in an English sentence.

RNJ



joselito_fletan -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 10 2018 4:30:40)

quote:

If you can’t say it, you probably can’t play it either


No ni na ! [;)]

No one kicks the dictionary better than a gaditano who will giva a triple negation to say 'yes'



Morante -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 10 2018 15:22:07)

quote:

No one kicks the dictionary better than a gaditano who will giva a triple negation to say 'yes'


¡Ole! En Cádiz la realidad casi no existe[;)] Lo que pasa, es que el resto del mundo se cree que si es la realidad.



joselito_fletan -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 10 2018 17:28:55)

quote:

¡Ole! En Cádiz la realidad casi no existe Lo que pasa, es que el resto del mundo se cree que si es la realidad.


POOOOO SIII!



edguerin -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 13 2018 15:36:20)

To geht back to the original topic:
The El Pais author is criticizing anthropomorphism in modern „fairy tales“. Had Ferdinand been substituted by The Little Engine That Could or Red Engine #35, I‘m pretty shure the reaction here would have been quite different



Morante -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 13 2018 16:09:54)

quote:

The El Pais author is criticizing anthropomorphism in modern „fairy tales“. Had Ferdinand been substituted by The Little Engine That Could or Red Engine #35, I‘m pretty shure the reaction here would have been quite different


The problem is the shallow thinking of modern cultures: seems that noone has ever studied logic. The TV program "Toros para todos" had an interesting programme today, interviewing aficionandos, matadores, psychologos, anti taurinos. The anti taurinos all seemed like fanaticos, the aficionados much more normal.

In many ways this is the fault of the United States; Coca Cola, MacDonalds, Money money money, with total disrespect to every other culture. What a shallow culture to impose on the world[:@] At last they have a president equally stupid, shallow, racista, borde y mentiroso. My one and only visit to the good "old USA" persuaded me never to return.

A land where extremism is normal, when the original inhabitants are treated like scum, is not a place for civilised people.

Little wonder that few understand el cante nor los toros nor the intimate relation between the two.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 13 2018 17:02:12)

quote:

total disrespect to every other culture. What a shallow culture to impose on the world

[…]

A land where extremism is normal, when the original inhabitants are treated like scum, is not a place for civilised people.


So presumably you disapprove of General Sir Charles Napier’s stopping the Hindus from burning surplus widows?



Piwin -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 13 2018 17:17:39)

quote:

is not a place for civilised people


What sh$thole country are you from? [8D]
I'm from the Republic of pile of cheesy frog sh$t. [:)]



Leñador -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 13 2018 19:18:43)

quote:

The anti taurinos all seemed like fanaticos, the aficionados much more normal.

I’m pretty neutral to bull fighting but this is no gauge of right and wrong. I’m sure slave owners were casual and nonchalant about owning slaves and seemed “normal” while abolitionists came off sounding fanatic.



Dudnote -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 14 2018 7:04:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

quote:

The anti taurinos all seemed like fanaticos, the aficionados much more normal.

I’m pretty neutral to bull fighting but this is no gauge of right and wrong. I’m sure slave owners were casual and nonchalant about owning slaves and seemed “normal” while abolitionists came off sounding fanatic.

The early feminists were certainly lampooned as being off their rocker.



Morante -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 14 2018 15:45:18)

quote:

The early feminists were certainly lampooned as being off their rocker.


Don´t seem to have changed much: the French feminists seem much saner.



BarkellWH -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 14 2018 17:16:08)

quote:

In many ways this is the fault of the United States; Coca Cola, MacDonalds, Money money money, with total disrespect to every other culture. What a shallow culture to impose on the world.

A land where extremism is normal, when the original inhabitants are treated like scum, is not a place for civilised people.

Little wonder that few understand el cante nor los toros nor the intimate relation between the two.


If you think that the popularity of Coca Cola, MacDonalds, and "money" is the fault of the United States' "total disrespect to (sic) every other culture," you have a very narrow and shallow understanding of how the world operates. The United States did not "impose" these products and ideas on other cultures. Whether one likes it or not, other cultures embraced them. You can include the popularity of "Levi" jeans in your litany as well.

As to your statement that the "original inhabitants are treated like scum," you are no doubt very proud of how the Spanish (many from Andalucia and Extremadura) treated the original inhabitants of the Americas when they conquered them, enslaved them, and how they treated them after independence and even today. Until very recently, a statue of Pizarro graced the Plaza de Armas in Lima, Peru.

The reason that "few understand el cante and los toros, nor the relation between the two" is because there are few aficionados of flamenco in the United States. The same could be said of Germany, France, Britain, Hungary, and China.

It is a mistake to allow your all-comsuming focus on "cante" and "los toros" to obscure your understanding of the wider world outside Andalucia and to distort your skewed vision of history.

Bill



Piwin -> RE: Ferdinand (Jan. 14 2018 21:28:43)

Before settling down here for a longer period of time, I hadn't realized how strong a presence French companies had here. Perhaps not as much in Andalucia but around Madrid it's almost unsettling. But of course, everything adapts to local culture to an extent, even the biggest companies. Walking down the aisles of a Carrefour store, I feel like I'm in France. And then I run into an entire aisle with nothing but different kinds of ham...



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