what is a master? (Full Version)

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Guetta -> what is a master? (Oct. 23 2017 13:57:20)

Hello everyone !

I would like to ask a question, what is a master? What makes someone master?
A Mestro en luthieria and also Maestro de la guitarra ? Is it a question of precision of know-how and knowledge?
Because many people have the technique and the knowledge but sincerely why it is just question of that?
While the most important things are not put forward (ethics, respect, the love of doing well ....)

What is the essence of a Maestro Luthier or Maestro guitarra ?

Thank you




Piwin -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 23 2017 15:37:31)

quote:

What is the essence of a Maestro Luthier or Maestro guitarra ?


About 60% water. [;)]

I don't agree with you that "many people have the technique and the knowledge".
Here's a parallel with learning a foreign language: there's that beginner phase where you're basically nothing more than a talking monkey. From that standpoint, anyone who knows how to speak the language seems to be a maestro to you.
After a while you get good enough to have decent conversations, even perhaps on technical topics. Some of the locals might even congratulate you on your language skills, though you never know if they're just being polite. And at that point you might actually think you "have the technique and the knowledge".
But after a while it finally hits you how far away you actually are from mastering the language. At that point it seems like your journey hasn't even begun yet and you feel even less competent than you did at the very beginning when you were nothing more than a talking monkey. Some people never get that realization though, so they stay stuck at that level. And tbh that's exactly where I'm at in my flamenco journey right now. It's pretty embarassing but for a while there I actually thought I was getting pretty good. Fortunately that didn't last too long so I can finally get moving along again. So I'd say there are a whole lot more people who think they have it than people who actually do have it.

You know how the Pareto principle keeps on coming up in popular culture these days? The idea that 20% of the effort gives you 80% of the effect? Well there are those who think they've mastered something because they've reached 80% and they think that's good enough. Maybe for them it is, but what makes the difference between them and a maestro is those 20 remaining percent, but that's where 80% of the effort lies.

As for the other things, I'm not really sure what you expect. Being a better person isn't going to make you a better musician or luthier necessarily. You can love your craft and still be a dick towards your fellow human beings. There are maestros out there who are also complete douchebags. To you they might be "Maestro Douchebag", but "Maestro" nonetheless. It's just two very separate things. You might as well ask why people only focus on musical knowledge and know-how and don't focus on their plumbing skills. It's just two completely different things.




Morante -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 23 2017 16:06:25)

quote:

But after a while it finally hits you how far away you actually are from mastering the language.


¡Ole! Piwin.

I have been living in Andalucia for 20 años, muy metido in the culture of flamenco, the only guiri who is socio de la Peña de Juan Villar, married to a wonderful woman who does not speak English.

So I have to speak Spanish all the time, but I am concious that I am only a talking monkey[;)]. And even my English has gone downhill! However, friends make allowances. To speak another language, you have to begin young.

I know lots of tocaores, cantaores, guitarreros and very few maestros.




mark indigo -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 23 2017 16:13:43)

quote:

But after a while it finally hits you how far away you actually are from mastering the language. At that point it seems like your journey hasn't even begun yet and you feel even less competent than you did at the very beginning when you were nothing more than a talking monkey. Some people never get that realization though, so they stay stuck at that level. And tbh that's exactly where I'm at in my flamenco journey right now. It's pretty embarassing but for a while there I actually thought I was getting pretty good. Fortunately that didn't last too long so I can finally get moving along again. So I'd say there are a whole lot more people who think they have it than people who actually do have it.


Or to put another way, after about 15 years of flamenco I started to get good enough to realise how bad I was![&:][:D]




edguerin -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 23 2017 16:56:40)

I am a guitar playing monkey and a multilingual parrot [:D][:D][:D]
but it's fun (well most of the time) and keeps me alive ...




JasonM -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 23 2017 17:18:04)

Easy. Someone who has been awarded a Master level certificate by Become-a-Master.com




kitarist -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 23 2017 17:46:15)

In other words...



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mark indigo -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 23 2017 19:58:46)

brilliant chart!

the more i learn, the more i realise there is to know




gerundino63 -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 23 2017 20:04:39)

A master craftsman or master tradesman (sometimes called only master or grandmaster) was a member of a guild. In the European guild system, only masters and journeymen were allowed to be members of the guild.

An aspiring master would have to pass through the career chain from apprentice to journeyman before he could be elected to become a master craftsman. He would then have to produce a sum of money and a masterpiece before he could actually join the guild. If the masterpiece was not accepted by the masters, he was not allowed to join the guild, possibly remaining a journeyman for the rest of his life.




Guetta -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 23 2017 22:42:19)

Well done Piwin,
I ask myself these questions and there are many things you said with which I agree! I do not affirm anything else if you read my sentence well, there are only questions?




jshelton5040 -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 23 2017 23:32:07)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gerundino63

A master craftsman or master tradesman (sometimes called only master or grandmaster) was a member of a guild. In the European guild system, only masters and journeymen were allowed to be members of the guild.

An aspiring master would have to pass through the career chain from apprentice to journeyman before he could be elected to become a master craftsman. He would then have to produce a sum of money and a masterpiece before he could actually join the guild. If the masterpiece was not accepted by the masters, he was not allowed to join the guild, possibly remaining a journeyman for the rest of his life.

Many years ago a fellow luthier tried to get me to help him form a guild in the US. I declined. Groucho Marx said, " I would never join a club that would allow me to be a member". I've only had one friend in my life that I would consider a master and he was a classic guitarist. I am a happy, humble craftsman and couldn't care less about stupid "titles".




Ricardo -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 24 2017 2:36:17)

We can get deep and anecdotal, but it really just means the individual is recognized by the other "masters" of the genre. Since there is always someone that came before or is simply higher level, many people working on various aspects of the genre don't like being referred to as such. Also keep in mind "maestro" means teacher in Spanish. Martial arts is a good analogy. There is teacher and grasshopper, padiwan and Jedi, etc.




tele -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 24 2017 12:34:10)

I think most if not all respected master musicians are quite humble, for example I remember Paco de Lucia saying something like "I think I've learned to play the guitar only recently", and if I'm not mistaken this was from an interview made within the past 20 years.




Cloth Ears -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 24 2017 13:03:33)

quote:

most if not all respected master musicians are quite humble


...Richard Wagner being a notable exception that proves the rule.




BarkellWH -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 24 2017 17:23:47)

quote:

I don't agree with you that "many people have the technique and the knowledge". Here's a parallel with learning a foreign language: there's that beginner phase where you're basically nothing more than a talking monkey. From that standpoint, anyone who knows how to speak the language seems to be a maestro to you.

After a while you get good enough to have decent conversations, even perhaps on technical topics. Some of the locals might even congratulate you on your language skills, though you never know if they're just being polite. And at that point you might actually think you "have the technique and the knowledge". But after a while it finally hits you how far away you actually are from mastering the language. At that point it seems like your journey hasn't even begun yet and you feel even less competent than you did at the very beginning when you were nothing more than a talking monkey. Some people never get that realization though, so they stay stuck at that level.


I am often amused, and sometimes irritated, when I hear someone say Spanish is an easy language to learn. Spanish, spoken correctly, uses the subjunctive mood probably 60 percent of the time, whereas in English we rarely use the subjunctive. I have heard many people speaking Spanish who have not learned to speak using the subjunctive well, if at all. They speak and understand Spanish, and they are understood by others, but a refined speaker of Spanish notes immediately that they are not speaking correct Spanish. I would say that Spanish is an easy language to learn to speak poorly. But like any other endeavor, it takes work to nail the language down correctly.

The same goes for Malay and Indonesian, which are 80 percent the same, but that 20 percent difference can get one in trouble if one is unaware of the differences. Also, they use prefixes and suffixes that can mean anything from greater emphasis to a different meaning. And even when the root word without the prefix or suffix can be understood, proper use means all the difference to the refined (particularly Javanese) ear. In fact, Malay and Indonesian have a phrase, "berbudi bahasa" ("bahasa" means "language"), that describes someone who is refined, graceful, and well-mannered. And it is largely defined by the correct use of language.

Bill




El Kiko -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 24 2017 17:55:27)

Grasshopper ....The master is the wise one , he who tells you
..
he who smelt it ,, delt it ...
.
.
and the water remains calm
[sm=rolleyes.gif]




kitarist -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 24 2017 18:03:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cloth Ears

quote:

most if not all respected master musicians are quite humble


...Richard Wagner being a notable exception that proves the rule.


It occurs to me that having power and influence in any field only crystallizes a person's essential character. Paco de Lucia seems to have been a wonderful human being - fame and not.

If so, then it follows that it is not fame and success which makes master musicians humble; it is just that more humble people than not become master musicians (if that stat is correct) [;)]




Escribano -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 24 2017 18:44:11)

quote:

After a while you get good enough to have decent conversations, even perhaps on technical topics. Some of the locals might even congratulate you on your language skills, though you never know if they're just being polite.


I can pretty much guarantee that 95% of Brits living in Spain cannot string a sentence together in Spain, apart from "dos cervezas, por favor" but they claim to "get by" and that it is an "easy language". [8|]




kitarist -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 24 2017 18:47:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano
I can pretty much guarantee that 95% of Brits living in Spain cannot string a sentence together in Spain, apart from "dos cervezas, por favor" but they claim to "get by" and that it is an "easy language". [8|]


And they would say it like "Sir-vay-sas" and por "fa-vawr" [:D]




Stu -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 24 2017 19:17:15)

Great chart there!!

I thought I heard something cold and unromantic about mastery. Something like 10,000 hrs and you're a master... But I dunno. 10000 hrs of doing something wrong means you're a master of that, not necessarily a master of flamenco




Gabewolf -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 24 2017 20:12:09)

@Stu, I've heard that too. I'm studying jazz at school right now, and all my professors are hip to this book called "the talent code". The book states that it takes 10 years of 4 hour focused practices every day to become a "master" at any skill.




kitarist -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 24 2017 20:35:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stu

Great chart there!!

I thought I heard something cold and unromantic about mastery. Something like 10,000 hrs and you're a master... But I dunno. 10000 hrs of doing something wrong means you're a master of that, not necessarily a master of flamenco


That's something that got popularized in the media - 10,000 hours of deliberate practice. However, more recently scientific studies point to that only explaining about a third of the variance in individual performance in chess and music. Here:




The "Ericsson is wrong" stuff in there ultimately refers to the original 1993 article which claimed that the accumulated length of deliberate practice explains all variability:



And, finally, the media went nuts a few years ago because of a book that popularized the 10,000-hours-to-expert "rule" taken but modified from the 1993 Ericsson paper.

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sartorius -> RE: what is a master? (Oct. 28 2017 9:00:50)

WTF is all that theory BS above???

A master is someone who teaches (himself and others) and learns every day.




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