Ruphus -> Collateral: Mail to a guitar pal (Aug. 22 2017 17:15:24)
Thank your fort the link.
A very sympathetic and relaxed performance. The tremolo I suppose to be m, a, i, p flamenco tremolo. Believe it or not, I was thinking to write a post on the foro about this technique, just yesterday. But then spared me the time.
But a hint for you (aside from the fact that this tremolo technique is perfect for enhancing separation through physiological economy without large-scaled approach): I mentioned years ago already on the foro, how contraction of the thumb base will block dexterity of the fingers (and was thinking to go into that more detailed yesterday), but have been re-discovering over the past days how much it really matters.
As a medically trained person you may be aware of the thumbs whereabouts. It is a weak limb. Made to counter fingers grip, in the same time being in the way (while grabbing branches in the trees in our ape times) if anatomically positioned vis a vis the fingers; the thumb thus being rooted laterally, while tasked with countering rectangular in the same time.
This makes for a bunch of strong muscles perpendicular to those of fingers, still nonetheless weakness. (Which is why in martial arts all intelligent freeing techniques from a grip go over the weakest limb: The thumb.)
Anyhow, my observation is that for optimal finger dexterity it is essential to ensure release of the thumb. Resting it on strings, and / or engaging it on basses while playing tremolo or arpeggio on trebles is not good for base exercise. For, this being involuntarily prone to needlessly contracting the thumb base muscles and irritate the muscular and neural execution of fingers. Instead it pays great time to exercise the fingers with the thumb close to the hands side and throughout as relaxed / poised as possible.
Once the feeling of unhampered / well centered finger apparatus and suspended thumb has been internalized and established, the thumb may be (economically) added to the active combination.
In fact a corresponding posture can be seen in many historical paintings and drawings of lute players. A posture that used to make me wonder how folks had been able to play at all with such a relaxed dangling hand. –Decades ago, when I had no clue of ergonomics. -
Back to the lady you linked to:
In the times when popular classical players were not much more than a handful, Bream used to be the one appreciated for expression. However, much of his phrasing was based on technical unevenness / limitation and thus largely physically determined.
The lady you linked to in the meantime has perfect control on where she lightens or enforces the touch of the strings, or on where she slows down or speeds up. A great example of control, and with that: Example of no superfluous muscular and neural engagement. The essential secret in the arts.
Stu -> RE: Collateral: Mail to a guitar pal (Aug. 24 2017 9:45:23)
who are you taking to? Who are you thanking?
You're link is just text.need to embed the video.
This is a confusing post
Also flamenco tremolo isn't m, a,i p Its P iami
Ruphus -> RE: Collateral: Mail to a guitar pal (Aug. 24 2017 11:59:38)
Are we being unwilling, Stu?
The one I was talking to is described as "guitar pal". Is it not info enough?
I don´t know why the link won´t open in the bulletin software. You could had copied and pasted it into your browsers address line. Here it is again, in case of it working this time:
You seem to know what flamenco tremolo is.
Stu -> RE: Collateral: Mail to a guitar pal (Aug. 24 2017 15:43:39)
[&:]
quote:
The one I was talking to is described as "guitar pal". Is it not info enough?
It most certainly isn't.haha,
I can only assume you mean everyone... 'Guitar pals' ie all guitar lovers. It's just the language you use sounds as if you are addressing someone particular. Like you've been having a discussion but the earlier posts of the thread had been deleted.
Where are you from Sir? I've no wish to offend but your posts are very difficult to understand.
Thanks for the embedded video. I'll watch asap
Ruphus -> RE: Collateral: Mail to a guitar pal (Aug. 25 2017 6:29:42)
The text was taken from an e-mail to someone.
From what I wrote it could be understood, I suppose, that he had sent me the youtube link, and that he is medically educated. Specifics rather unlikely of a group of people.
So, how did you like the performance of the lady?
Stu -> RE: Collateral: Mail to a guitar pal (Aug. 25 2017 14:40:56)
I'm still a little confused Haha
But to answer your question. Its hard not to like that performance really. Guitar sounds fantastic and she plays rather well . I imagine she's a bit of a big deal in classical world?
I usually left cold by most classical guitar music and the was not really an exception.. But the performance was enjoyable and I can appreciate her talent.
Ricardo -> RE: Collateral: Mail to a guitar pal (Aug. 25 2017 17:48:36)
This confusing post was an email exchange ruphus must have had recently. The girl in the video I recognized in the small audience of a show I did in NYC two months ago. I wanted to talk to her but was connered at the end of the show and later couldn't find her. The tremolo is P a m i of course.
In regards to thumb, resting the thumb is not designed to involve thumb muscles or tensions rather the exact opposite. In order to do this technique as all free stroke the hand must be held in extreme tight position hovering precisely over the the right spot via the elbow. This is something I have often thought of as not "ergonomic" or whatever in comparison to the typical flamenco method of anchoring the hand position via the rested thumb. The amount of tension released from the elbow to maintain the hand position for a long tremolo passage is, IMO orders of magnitude better for the body physically. I dont' think it a coincidence the enormous body of tremolo passages that exist in the flamenco repertoire vs classical guitar composition and arrangements might be due to this issue of comfort difference between the two approaches.
Ruphus -> RE: Collateral: Mail to a guitar pal (Aug. 25 2017 17:55:14)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu
I'm still a little confused Haha
But to answer your question. Its hard not to like that performance really. Guitar sounds fantastic and she plays rather well . I imagine she's a bit of a big deal in classical world?
I usually left cold by most classical guitar music and the was not really an exception.. But the performance was enjoyable and I can appreciate her talent.
The guitar is a Rompre. Said guitar pal owns one too.
I did not know of this lady, until the link was sent to me. Her playing is really something. Economical and seamless.
How on earth can one be left cold by the whole of classical guitar? There exist so many different beautiful pieces! I think you deserve to be nailed onto a Monty Python crucifix under the burning sun, with a ghetto blaster hanging around your neck, blasting some rap crap. hehe [:D]
mark indigo -> RE: Collateral: Mail to a guitar pal (Aug. 25 2017 18:10:55)
quote:
I've no wish to offend but your posts are very difficult to understand.
quote:
I'm still a little confused Haha
quote:
This confusing post was an email exchange ruphus must have had recently.
quote:
I think you deserve to be nailed onto a Monty Python crucifix under the burning sun, with a ghetto blaster hanging around your neck, blasting some rap crap. hehe
This thread just broke my randometer....
Leñador -> RE: Collateral: Mail to a guitar pal (Aug. 25 2017 19:54:52)
quote:
I usually left cold by most classical guitar music
Me too, not all but most of it does nothing for me, occasionally I'll hear something I really like. Generally just the Latin American stuff....
Ruphus -> RE: Collateral: Mail to a guitar pal (Aug. 25 2017 20:54:22)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
This confusing post was an email exchange ruphus must have had recently. The girl in the video I recognized in the small audience of a show I did in NYC two months ago. I wanted to talk to her but was connered at the end of the show and later couldn't find her.
Too bad you couldn´t talk with her. It would had been interesting to hear about the conversation.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
The tremolo is P a m i of course.
Welcome to the third suggestion. [:D]
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
In regards to thumb, resting the thumb is not designed to involve thumb muscles or tensions rather the exact opposite. In order to do this technique as all free stroke the hand must be held in extreme tight position hovering precisely over the the right spot via the elbow. This is something I have often thought of as not "ergonomic" or whatever in comparison to the typical flamenco method of anchoring the hand position via the rested thumb. The amount of tension released from the elbow to maintain the hand position for a long tremolo passage is, IMO orders of magnitude better for the body physically. I dont' think it a coincidence the enormous body of tremolo passages that exist in the flamenco repertoire vs classical guitar composition and arrangements might be due to this issue of comfort difference between the two approaches.
To me some of you compadres can sound just as confusing. I assume you are saying that resting the thumb and playing restrokes is more comfortable than lifting the ellbow and playing free strokes?
In view of the resting thumb there will inevitably be tension involved in the thumbs base. Because if there was none, the thumb would be giving in / open up and let the hand drop off.
This is why I suppose it to be better to exercise with thumb off the strings in natural poise or even nestled against the lateral hand surface, regardless off free- or rest stroke. Until the feeling of entirely free finger action (centered around m) has been internalized, so that when adding the thumb as an anchor or as a playing limb it shall be consciously engaged with just the minimum of tension needed.
You know, analog to the famous Laozi saying: "Only who is familar with silence, can sense the sound of the bell", or something to that extent.
Stu -> RE: Collateral: Mail to a guitar pal (Aug. 25 2017 21:20:01)
Hahahahah. Are you suggesting I'm some kind of Jesus!!?? Why thanks.[;)]
Just to be clear I didn't say 'the whole of' I said 'most' classical guitar. To be fair though, I've not listened to huge amount but that's probably because it doesn't excite me or I wouldve naturally sought out more. Like I do with flamenco music.
I've no wish to spark about classical v flamenco debate. Been done. But seeing as you asked I find it stuffy and a little too nice and always a little ploddy.
However in 2015 I went and built a guitar in granada with Stephen Hill and at the end of the course he organises some local players to give a concert with the 6 course guitars that are made. One of the players was a player called paco seco and he was pretty mind blowing.
Kind of a modern classical flamenco mix. I have a video of him playing some place . I'll dig it out. He's classically trained bit his music is a far cry from stuffy chamber music classical player with a rod up his back.
Ruphus -> RE: Collateral: Mail to a guitar pal (Aug. 26 2017 12:26:10)
Well, Tarrega, Aguado, Carcassi, Bach, Diabelli & co. are debating your pardon, but I am already selling stones. Though, suspecting women among the customers. Seems as if they were hiding their faces and speaking in lower pitch to camouflage themselves.
Ricardo -> RE: Collateral: Mail to a guitar pal (Aug. 26 2017 21:35:09)
quote:
To me some of you compadres can sound just as confusing. I assume you are saying that resting the thumb and playing restrokes is more comfortable than lifting the ellbow and playing free strokes?
In view of the resting thumb there will inevitably be tension involved in the thumbs base. Because if there was none, the thumb would be giving in / open up and let the hand drop off.
This is why I suppose it to be better to exercise with thumb off the strings in natural poise or even nestled against the lateral hand surface, regardless off free- or rest stroke. Until the feeling of entirely free finger action (centered around m) has been internalized, so that when adding the thumb as an anchor or as a playing limb it shall be consciously engaged with just the minimum of tension needed.
Seems like we have had this argument before. Anyway, maybe this will make it more clear? My elbow feels tension when I do this hovering over the strings with free stroke, where as when resting the thumb like this, my elbow is only involved briefly (and only sometimes) in resetting on the lower bass notes. The feeling of the two techniques if completely different and I am not sure how either would be teaching tension in the thumb, I am more concerned with how the arm feels over several minutes of doing this single technique.
I Used to do tremolo very rarely years ago, and not very different than the girl in the top video. When i did have to do it, I always wanted to be warmed up and get through it quickly. After getting the thumb rest worked out, I now feel so comfy doing this that I prefer to do tremolo early in a concert program as it is relaxing and nice to warm up with.
Richard Jernigan -> RE: Collateral: Mail to a guitar pal (Aug. 27 2017 0:23:34)
I do both kinds of tremolo being discussed here. For me the flamenco style is easier and more reliable, for the reasons Ricardo gives.
RNJ
Ruphus -> RE: Collateral: Mail to a guitar pal (Aug. 27 2017 12:17:43)
I wasn´t trying to evaluate which of these technical approaches was easier to execute.
What I have been trying to convey is that it can pay big deal to start picado and arpeggio exercises without engagement of the thumb. With the thumb as idle and relaxed as can be.
Hence, to start engagement of the thumb yet after use of unhindered fingers has been memorized / internalized, for to ensure that thumb engagement (whether as apoyando or as anchor) will be with the least of tension in the thumbs base.
