left hand technique question

left hand technique question (Full Version)

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callemunicion -> left hand technique question (Jul. 22 2017 17:37:00)
Hello, just asking myself if it's technically better to (always) lift the finger from the string after you play a note or are there expectations? Hope you know what I mean.

Leñador -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 22 2017 19:04:04)
Mas info porfa. What finger which hand in what context?

Ricardo -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 22 2017 19:47:19)
It's better to keep it down if you play patterns on one string, better to move if you are going to change strings

Escribano -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 22 2017 19:55:45)
You mean the finger floats in mid-air until needed elsewhere? Not even sure I could do that.

callemunicion -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 22 2017 21:24:35)
quote: It's better to keep it down if you play patterns on one string, better to move if you are going to change strings Thanks!

Erik van Goch -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 22 2017 22:03:45)
quote: Just asking myself if it's technically better to (always) lift the finger from the string after you play a note or are there expectations? Quite the opposite actually. One of the very first things i had to "unlearn" when i entered conservatory was my habit to lift my fingers as soon as other fingers took over control of that string. For instance when i had to play --0-1-3-1-0----- ------------------ ------------------ ------------------ ------------------ ------------------- i tended to lift the first finger when (or even before) fretting the 3th finger after which it had to be re-placed when going back from 3 to 1. Obviously this is a waste of energy (and even a loss of sound if the finger is lifted to hastily) and it is way better to keep that 1-th finger posed until the moment it has to be lifted in order to be able to play to play the open string again. In general melodies tend to go up and down (using the same notes/fingers/frettings in both up and downwards direction) so if there is no direct need to lift a finger the general strategy is to keep them posted/fretted as long as possible, even if they will not be played again. For instance when playing -1-2-3-4-/1--- ----------------- ----------------- ----------------- ----------------- ----------------- i leave all fingers on string (ending up with all 4 fingers lined up together) after which i lift finger [2,3,4] simultaneously in order to return to finger 1 (which remains fretted all the time). This even happens when the lifting is combined with positional movement of the hand to other positions. when playing 1-th pos./5-th position -1-2-3-4/-5-6-7-8- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- the 5,6,7,8 part is played with the same fingers as the 1234 part, the only difference is that in order to fret 5,6,7,8 your hand has to be moved to/positioned at 5-th position. Now as an amateur when moving my hand from 1-th position to 5-th position (in above situation) i tended to lift all 4 fingers, then made a "huge jump" in the air (hoping) to reach the 5-th position were i had to re-fret the 1st finger and balance the hand again. Quite often i lost "sight" of where i was during that "quantum leap". At conservatory i learned there is a way smarter way to make that "jump" from 1-th position to 5-th position and that actually there is no real difference between playing 1,2,3,4/1,2,3,4 and playing 1,2,3,4/5,6,7,8 in the sense of "finger management". As far as finger management is concerned you preferably have to play the guitar LIKE THERE IS 1 POSITION ONLY (additional/simultaneous hand moves will bring the fingers to the required position). Now what i want you to do is play 1,2,3,4 a couple of times on a row in the way i explained above>>>>> after being played each and every finger stays were it is, ending up with all 4 fingers lined up in a row up to the moment were you lift [2,3,4] simultaneously in order to return ro finger 1. 1....2.....3.....4.../.1...2....3.......4../1 .....put.down.and/lift.put.down.and/lift During the "lift" part you simultaneously lift finger [2,3,4} which automatically brings you back to finger/fret 1 WHICH REMAINS FRETTED ALL THE TIME. Now what i want you to do is play that 1234 gripping pattern tree times in a row but when doing it the 3-th time simultaneously move your hand up to the 5-th position WHILE REMAINING THE FEELING YOU JUST RETURN FROM 4 TO 1 THE VERY SAME WAY YOU DID THE FIST 2 ROUNDS. 1....2.....3.....4.../.1...2....3.......4../ 5 .....put.down.and/lift.put.down.and/lift Now in order to end up in 5-th position all you have to do is move your hand to the 5-th position DURING THE LIFT PART. Note that in your mind finger 1 keeps posted like in the previous rounds so despite the hand being moved from 1th to 5-th position the first finger REMAINS IN CONTACT WITH THE STRING. All i do is release pressure in such a way i don't end up plying glissando (i guess the pressure applied is comparable with playing flageolet) and while that hand moves the index simply glides/skates over the string from 1 position to the 5-th fret wile muting the string). Once the first finger reaches the 5-th fret pressure is added again in order to fret it properly. "Lifting" the 1-th finger, moving it while keeping contact with the string, and re-fretting it at 5-th position all happens during the part were you lift the other 3 fingers in order to return to the 1-th finger. Other advantage is that playing it like that it no longer feels like making a huge jump to the new position because it hardly feels like a change of position at all. Just before making the "jump" your eyes or mind makes contact with the intended new fret making that finger ending up there very easy and natural and again not feeling like a jump at all. In general my left hand management is done "like everything occurs in the same position", additional hand moves to bring that setup to different positions of the guitar (like the gliding proces mentioned above) are added on top of that with little or no disturbance of the normal finger actions. I use similar strategies for the right hand when playing pulgar, arpeggio, picado were the finger action just continues like everything occurs on the same strings while additional hand movement brings the action to other string selections. Sometimes i even place fingers on strings i don't actually plug for instance because they are part of the chord or to ease the other finger actions one way o the other (on top that unplugged but well chosen note might produce vital overtones/resonance vibrations that enrich the sound and even allows one to lift/kill the note that started it's resonance without loosing the note it covered). Good reasons to keep fingers posted * it can be played again effortless * limited/concentrated actions. * sound issues * to ease the other finger actions (one way or the other) Good reasons to lift a finger are: * it is needed elsewhere * to return to other fingers waiting their turn on that string * sound issues * having negative influence on other finger actions Sometimes i choose to lift and place again for technical or sound issues but my general strategy is to keep fingers posted as long as needed/possible.

Filip -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 23 2017 9:42:15)
Quite good answers, I will just add one recent example when I lift a finger because I found it easier to play. I think this is in line with what Ricardo said, but maybe it's not such a good practice. Consider the tremolo part: ---2-2-3-2-------0-2-2-2------3-3-3-2---- ---------------------------------------------- ------------------------------2--------------- --------------1-------------------------------- -2--------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- So, I first press the fifth sting with finger 2, the fourth string with finger 1, and the first string with finger 3, all at the same time. As soon as I finish the first 5 notes, I lift the finger 2 because it is latter easier for me to put it on the third string for the last 5 notes in this tremolo part. Cheers

Erik van Goch -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 23 2017 11:04:21)
quote: ORIGINAL: Filip Consider the tremolo part: ---2-2-3-2-------0-2-2-2------3-3-3-2---- ---------------------------------------------- ------------------------------2--------------- --------------1-------------------------------- -2--------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- I once gave a pretty advanced student a soleares falseta on paper to work on at home and was amazed to see he failed to notice most action was constructed around a couple of pretty standard chord grips. As a result he ended up throwing in a lot of difficult and totally unnecessary left hand manoeuvres were i just grabbed a couple of simple chords not giving the left hand any trouble (well, a bit in the end). In above tremolo i would tend to just grab a B7 chord ---2------- little finger ---0------- ---2------- ring finger ---1------- index ---2------- middle finger ------------ The melody at 1-th string i would cover with my pinky (covering both 2-th and 3-th fret). That's the nice thing about playing, quite often there are various options and it's up top the player what fits his hands or way of playing most. The same student that failed to spot the chord link of the action in that soleares was able to copy Vicentes left hand management in Tarantas were i found it technically impossible to hold the fingers both he and Vicente were holding, simply because my hand somehow did not support that (but the very same hand might allow me to play things that turn out to be difficult to others to copy simply because every hand is different). ------ --3---- middle --6---- pinky --4---- ring --2----- index --------- ----------------------0----------------------- ---------0-----3---------3----~0-------3--- ------------6-----6---------6------6-------- ------4-------------------------------------- --2------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------- Unlike Vicente and many others i'm not able to hold that index fretted during the rest of the action so i reluctantly lift it (losing the important note it has to cover in the proces) and use it cover the 3th fret of the second string later on (rather then favoring the middle finger to cover it).

JasonM -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 23 2017 15:13:08)
quote: ------ --3---- middle --6---- pinky --4---- ring --2----- index --------- ----------------------0----------------------- ---------0-----3---------3----~0-------3--- ------------6-----6---------6------6-------- ------4-------------------------------------- --2------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------- Unlike Vicente and many others i'm not able to hold that index fretted during the rest of the action so i reluctantly lift it (lossong the important note it has to cover in the proces) and use it cover the 3th fret of the second string later on (rather then favoring the middle finger to cover it). I have trouble with this arpeggio too, but different part my tiny hand can't handle well. --2^0 - Index --3---- middle --6---- pinky --4---- ring --2----- index -------- Where the index comes off of note B and moves to F#, pull off to E, then play decending bm9 arpeggio. I have to shift my left thumb to the bottom of the neck and point it towards the headstock. even harder stretch is to hold Bm9 and move index to B flat in base, but I don't find it necessary to hold the chord here like he does.

Ricardo -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 23 2017 15:23:15)
Something like this is better to remove fingers after: --3--2-------------2---------- ---------5--1--3------5--1--- ------------------------------- ------------------------------- ------------------------------- ------------------------------- Hint: I'm not using third finger for any of this. If you do then you can hold down 2 only.

callemunicion -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 24 2017 16:49:06)
Thank you for all the interesting and useful posts! Ricardo, do you mean you hold down the 2 finger the whole time when you play this.

Filip -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 24 2017 18:29:30)
quote: In above tremolo i would tend to just grab a B7 chord ---2------- little finger ---0------- ---2------- ring finger ---1------- index ---2------- middle finger ------------ I thought it would be easier for me to move the middle finger once than to move small finger many times :D But that's just me, and maybe with a little practice I could prove myself wrong.

Cervantes -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 24 2017 19:05:12)
Similar to what Erik said, my teacher is always pointing out that I should be playing and holding whatever chord the notes fit into. In most cases that means fingering the full chord even if you are not going to be playing all the notes. I would have tendency to finger the notes as they were needed and with the wrong fingers. Even if you are not playing a note in the chord it can effect the sound.

Ricardo -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 24 2017 21:59:03)
quote: ORIGINAL: callemunicion Thank you for all the interesting and useful posts! Ricardo, do you mean you hold down the 2 finger the whole time when you play this. No, I don't hold any fingers down they lift after each note is played. (Left hand fingers are 21412141 etc) But if someone were to try to use the ring finger it would be possible to hold down the middle finger on the second fret. (32413241 etc)

Erik van Goch -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 24 2017 22:23:46)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cervantes Even if you are not playing a note in the chord it can effect the sound. Aside of resonating/overtone effects it's always safe to have a matching note when you incidentally hit a neighboring string :-).

Erik van Goch -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 24 2017 22:49:43)
quote: ORIGINAL: Filip I thought it would be easier for me to move the middle finger once than to move small finger many times :D But that's just me, and maybe with a little practice I could prove myself wrong. It's also possible i over estimate myself but thats how i generally would approach it :-). I composed a lovely fandangos theme (which took me months of shaping) which includes a short "picado" were for some strange reason i also favor to use my pinky to play most of the notes. Starting position is index barre at 3th fret and 3th finger pressing 5th fret --3----------------------- --3------------------------ --5------------------------ --3------------------------ --3------------------------ --3------------------------ all the other notes are covered by my pinky while the index and 3th finger remain posted. -----------------3--5p--6p- -----3--5p--6p------------- --5-------------------------- ----------------------------- ----------------------------- ---------------------------- Quite daring and my father once asked me why on earth i selected my pinky to cover all the notes and the answer was simple "that's me". Somehow it feels right to me although at precent day i'm not able to play it as naturally as i used to do (i could play it quite easily but at precent day i tend to crash on it).

mark indigo -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 25 2017 13:16:52)
quote: Consider the tremolo part: ---2-2-3-2-------0-2-2-2------3-3-3-2---- ---------------------------------------------- ------------------------------2--------------- --------------1-------------------------------- -2--------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- just wondering what it is you are playing with that in it? is it Barrio La Viña? I used to play that part moving my 2nd finger from the 5th string to the 3rd string for the final beat bass note, and leaving fingers 3 and 4 for the melody on the top string. I was never really happy playing it that way, somehow it didn't sound or feel quite right. I saw a vid of someone else playing it, I think maybe Grisha, and noticed he kept 3 fingers down on the bass notes on 3rd, 4th and 5th strings, and used only the 4th finger for the top string melody notes. I now play it this way. I find it harder to coordinate the movements of the 4th finger in time to get it to sound clean, and still need to practise this part, but overall the chord sounds better. From close listening to the recording I think this is probably the way Paco did it originally.

Erik van Goch -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 25 2017 16:43:03)
quote: ORIGINAL: mark indigo I used to play that part moving my 2nd finger from the 5th string to the 3rd string for the final beat bass note, and leaving fingers 3 and 4 for the melody on the top string. I was never really happy playing it that way, somehow it didn't sound or feel quite right. One of the problems of that multi tasking 2-th finger (aside from a lot of things going on you have to handle) is that as soon as you lift it to go to the 3-th string you loose the note it covered on the 5-th string. I would favor the left hand management you saw on that video.

mark indigo -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 27 2017 14:15:14)
quote: I would favor the left hand management you saw on that video. I now play it this way. I find it harder to coordinate the movements of the 4th finger in time to get it to sound clean, and still need to practise this part, but overall the chord sounds better. From close listening to the recording I think this is probably the way Paco did it originally. [:)][:)][:)]

kitarist -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 27 2017 15:41:21)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch quote: ORIGINAL: mark indigo I used to play that part moving my 2nd finger from the 5th string to the 3rd string for the final beat bass note, and leaving fingers 3 and 4 for the melody on the top string. I was never really happy playing it that way, somehow it didn't sound or feel quite right. One of the problems of that multi tasking 2-th finger (aside from a lot of things going on you have to handle) is that as soon as you lift it to go to the 3-th string you loose the note it covered on the 5-th string. I would favor the left hand management you saw on that video. I went back and forth between the two approaches and at the end went back to the 2nd finger moving from 5th to 3rd string - it can be done really smoothly in the last possible moment but takes a lot of practice (for me [:D]). Still, the 4th-finger-on-1st-string-for-every-note approach never worked well for me.

Erik van Goch -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 27 2017 16:10:14)
quote: ORIGINAL: kitarist I went back and forth between the two approaches and at the end went back to the 2nd finger moving from 5th to 3rd string - it can be done really smoothly in the last possible moment but takes a lot of practice (for me [:D]). Still, the 4th-finger-on-1st-string-for-every-note approach never worked well for me. We all have to find/choose the way that suits us best. My main objection to replacing that second fingers is that it kills the first bass note. On the other hand i know that if you study things in great detail with a keen ear for sound that it is very well possible to kill a note without making it to obvious. Quite often there is one particular moment (sometimes a split second) were you can lift it without leaving a sound gap while doing it a fraction sooner or later might result in a very noticeable loss of sound. Sometimes "the right moment" has to do with other strings resonating that tone already (so it can be lifted while it's tone still "rings"), at other moments it's linked to synchronizing it to playing another note that redirects the listeners attention. Correct timing and sound balance can make a hel of a difference in the outcome. Your approach as well as mine are to demanding for me to give it a try myself (it would take me tons of practice to get it right).

kitarist -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 27 2017 16:20:44)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch quote: ORIGINAL: kitarist I went back and forth between the two approaches and at the end went back to the 2nd finger moving from 5th to 3rd string - it can be done really smoothly in the last possible moment but takes a lot of practice (for me [:D]). Still, the 4th-finger-on-1st-string-for-every-note approach never worked well for me. We all have to find/choose the way that suits us best. My main objection to replacing that second fingers is that it kills the first bass note. On the other hand i know that if you study things in great detail with a keen ear for sound that it is very well possible to kill a note without making it to obvious. I think in this case what also helps to make it less obvious is that, after the 5th string B, the 4th string D# has been sounded too, so the B (1) was not the last sounded bass note before the switch to 3rd string A has to be made, and (2) it had already attenuated a bit, especially against the sonic background of the D#. But like you say, to each what suits them best.

Ricardo -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 27 2017 17:40:18)
The B7 tremolo misses an important detail....what the NEXT measure is supposed to be. I say that because if you have to repeat the B on the second fret 5th string, it is not good to have to jump back, killing the A note and the overall sustain to the chord. Most likely I would see sliding 4 as the ONLY way to do this.

kitarist -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 27 2017 21:42:51)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ricardo The B7 tremolo misses an important detail....what the NEXT measure is supposed to be. I say that because if you have to repeat the B on the second fret 5th string, it is not good to have to jump back, killing the A note and the overall sustain to the chord. Most likely I would see sliding 4 as the ONLY way to do this. Great point in general - what comes next matters as much as what was before for optimal LH fingering; I didn't think of that. In this particular case, though, what follows in Barrio La Vina is this: So in this particular case, I think it works with the 2nd LH finger shifting if one can pull it off smoothly. Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Erik van Goch -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 28 2017 13:32:39)
quote: ORIGINAL: kitarist In this particular case, though, what follows in Barrio La Vina is this: In which case my full B7 chord would be simply followed by a full Em chord, allowing me to hold that 2-th finger on the 5-th string all the time serving both chords :-). Your solution is one that would not even cross my mind but i guess it can be done if you want (or have) to avoid the standard chord based approach for one reason or the other. Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

kitarist -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 28 2017 15:35:25)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch Your solution is one that would not even cross my mind but i guess it can be done if you want (or have) to avoid the standard chord based approach for one reason or the other. I guess my LH pinky is not strong enough yet for me to execute the top line with fluidity, so had to look for alternatives :-) Probably should revisit one day..

Erik van Goch -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 28 2017 18:19:45)
quote: ORIGINAL: kitarist I guess my LH pinky is not strong enough yet for me to execute the top line with fluidity, so had to look for alternatives :-) Probably should revisit one day.. Good wine takes time to age :-). It took me years to develop a fluent arpeggio/tremolo (still struggled with it as a 3-th year student of RC until i discovered my fingers lacked fluentness because i kept to much tension on my thump) or to be able to play the tarantas chord by pulling back my ring finger :-).

Filip -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 29 2017 17:48:20)
quote: ll the other notes are covered by my pinky while the index and 3th finger remain posted. -----------------3--5p--6p- -----3--5p--6p------------- --5-------------------------- ----------------------------- ----------------------------- ---------------------------- Your picado with pinky only is crazy :) I would do it with the 2nd finger on the 3rd string, and would use both 3rd and 4th finger for the picado. The part of tremolo I mentioned is indeed Barrio la Viña, I tried the pinky way but it is to complicated for me.

Erik van Goch -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 29 2017 19:47:49)
quote: ORIGINAL: Filip quote: all the other notes are covered by my pinky while the index and 3th finger remain posted. -----------------3--5p--6p- -----3--5p--6p------------- --5-------------------------- ----------------------------- ----------------------------- ---------------------------- Your picado with pinky only is crazy :) I would do it with the 2nd finger on the 3rd string, and would use both 3rd and 4th finger for the picado. Yeah, it kind of is isn't it :-). One of the reasons i play it like that (aside that it somehow feels "natural" to me) is that previously i play this chord: ----------- ---8------- pinky ---7------- 3th finger ---5------- barre --(5)------ ---7------- 2th finger which already has the same line up of fingers in the 5-th position. So rather then moving that 2-th finger from 6-th string to 3-th string (during the split second i slide back from 5-th to 3-th position) i favor to use the same finger setup in both chords which allows me to slide back the barre finger and the 3-th finger while keeping contact with the string. This gives me the first notes "for free" and in return i settle for the fact the pinky is the only remaining finger to cover the 5-th and 6-th fret. The 3-th finger stays fretted to "ease" that action and is only lifted after my pinky reached it's final note. Then, while the pinky and the barre index stay posted, the 3-th finger is finally lifted to play the next chord... --6--- pinky --5--- 3th --3--- barre --5--- 2th --3--- barre ------ So although pretty crazy when looking at the isolated phrase, it does have a certain logic considering what precedes and follows it, on top it's the way i tend do deal with things anyway :-).

Miguel de Maria -> RE: left hand technique question (Jul. 30 2017 21:40:07)
This is a deeper question than it appears IMO. You said if it was technically better, but sometimes it is a musical thing. For example, in classical music, there is a concept that the endings of notes are just as important as the beginning. Much of the art of CG is muting basses that are ringing and shouldn't be. Also, often you can easily recognize the underlying chord pattern ("grip") but you _shouldn't_ play it as a grip, but put the fingers down as they are needed. This helps keep the voices distinct, conserves energy, and helps legato. In technical terms, I have never really felt leaving fingers down helped me. For example, if I were playing a chromatic lick 1234, I don't really like to hold down and keep down each note, I tend to lift the notes as the next note is played.

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