RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Full Version)

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estebanana -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 13 2017 1:11:56)

quote:

It's bright and snappy with some chorus and reverb....very 1980's miami vice, I think it was absolutely perfect for that ONE tune.


EXACTLY _ when I hear that tone, I instantly think of floosey TV hookers, coral pink sports jackets and Trumps hair piece comb over.


..and they say there's no humor here......



HemeolaMan -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 13 2017 18:34:53)

This stuff is a little more laid back than the jaco style.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/MYrgtFBFOmU?list=PLovV-oREMxTzxHufndiFS3OGHogh_hjoG



Njål Bendixen -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 13 2017 20:35:32)

Ukiah


Here is my 2 cents. Forget about the bass for the moment. If you are serious about playing bass in flamenco get yourself a cheap guitar and have a few guitar lessons from a real flamenco guitarist. Then you will soon be able to transpose your new guitar knowledge to the bass yourself.

Njål



Erik van Goch -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 13 2017 20:48:29)

A mandatory part of the final exam flamenco guitar of Rotterdam Conservatory is playing a flamenco ensemble piece. To me it was the perfect opportunity to work out a bulerias theme i composed in the late 80ties with a Paco de Lucia sextet kind of setting in mind (various themes i came up with over the years seem to be written for the flute rather then the guitar and this bulerias theme was one of them and not at all suitable for solo guitar). I had a clear view on what melody i wanted to be played by the flute player and which chords to add myself. On top we added a second guitar, a cajon (i already had a nice break in mind witch included a group/cajon dialoge) and last but not least we added bass. My father who was a very experienced arranger came up with a bass line that added an unexpected counter melody/rhythm that really uplifted the composition to a way higher level.

Aside from the Paco de Lucia Sexted (starring the fabulous Carles Benevent) ensemble arrangements have been made for various recordings/performances by various artists. In many cases i would have preferred the material to be played solo, but when done well adding additional voices like a bass can really pay off. On top it allows artist to include material that is less suitable for solo playing and to expand their musical/compositional pallet. A capable and flamenco trained bass player can add beautiful things, especially in ensemble settings, varying a more supportive role (and adding interesting sound effects) with challenging counter voices/rhythms and unisono support of the main voice/guitar. Every now and then i attended flamenco performances were the bass player turned out to be my favorite player :-).

On top over the years bass players added more strings into the direction of the guitar, some guitarists tend to play with dropped tunings a lot or even add 1 or more extra bass strings. And not only the instruments are growing towards each other, so are the players.











AlVãl -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 14 2017 1:40:42)

if mentioned earlier... apologies
Javier Colina seems to be the go to man for acoustic bass in the flamenco world
lots of clips on you tube
he seems to have played with most of the great players

i love the sound of acoustic bass in modern flamenco ...its a logical addition to the expanding sonic vocabulary ...
personally not a fan of the Benevant tone but that is just one tone amongst others
Alain Perez is also worth checking out...






ric -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 14 2017 14:00:54)

I'm in Santa Rosa, but my advise is not. As a former (mediocre) bass player, it seems to be incumbent upon bass players to fit in. I would suggest listening to as much as you can (internet radio etc.), identifying what you like (who, and is it a rhumba, tango, buleria, etc.) and just going with what your ears are telling you to do. Play along to the radio, take any local classes (dance), or take lessons from a guitarist who is open to explaining. Have fun and don't worry about the details of things--that will come later. Above all use your ears and follow them....



Ukiah Bass -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 14 2017 15:15:07)

Thank you for the terrific, thoughtful responses and song posts. I've been offline for a few days and am just starting to catch up.

Loving the Dave Holland music! Very nice, quiet, tasteful, laid back. Just what I had in mind.

I think there's hope ahead!



Ukiah Bass -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 14 2017 17:17:27)

Looks like the best way to start learning "authentic" flamenco is to get a handle on the unique rhythms for palos. My secret weapon for rhythm training is "Beat Buddy," a pedal that acts as a virtual drummer. It works like a champ and unlike many drummers, is always on time and never complains! :) The pedal format lets you use it in casual gig settings in case the percussionist doesn't show up.

https://mybeatbuddy.com

https://library.mybeatbuddy.com/drum-sets/flamenco-percussion-set

https://library.mybeatbuddy.com/drum-beats/flamenco-beats-vol1
Buleria- moderna en 12
Buleria- al golpe
Buleria- en seis tiempos
Buleria- en seis octavos
Buleria- antiguas en 12
Jaleo (tradicional)
Solea Por Buleria (tradicional)
Solear- compas moderno
Solear- compas antiguo
Seguriya (tradicional)
Alegria- soniquete moderno
Alegria- soniquete antiguo

https://library.mybeatbuddy.com/drum-beats/flamenco-beats-vol2
Fendango- en doece tiempos
Fendango- en seis tiempos
Fendango- en tres tiempos
Guajira tradicional
Rumba tradicional
Rumba moderna
Rumba Gypsy Kings
Sevillana
Tango tradicional
Tientos tradicional
Zapateado tradicional



Piwin -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 14 2017 17:39:49)

Olé! [:)]
A typical palo to start with is solea, because it is fairly slow and has that one rhythm that is often thought of as typically flamenco: 12 beats with strong beats on 3, 6, 8, 10, 12. That's flamenco 101 and you'll hear students everywhere doing the typical exercice of counting to 12 in loops and clapping the strong beats or marking them with their feet.



Erik van Goch -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 14 2017 17:45:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ukiah Bass

My secret weapon for rhythm training is "Beat Buddy," a pedal that acts as a virtual drummer. It works like a champ and unlike many drummers, is always on time and never complains! :)

Solear- compas moderno
Seguriya (tradicional)
Fendango- en seis tiempos


Nomenclature, sound samples and the ole's and boo's turn out to be pretty consistent as well :-).



Ukiah Bass -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 14 2017 20:50:36)

Thanks, the Sirimusa is more like the sonic padding idea I had except it accentuates the rhythm points within measures.

The examples I'm preferring are all with upright bass. Which is what my acoustic bass guitar sounds like with nylon tapewounds. This sounds much more complimentary to acoustic guitar than the Jaco farts. Which have their place in some jazz contexts. Just not places I prefer to go.



HemeolaMan -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 14 2017 20:54:21)

Not flamenco, but applicable I think



Frenchy lefty -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 16 2017 15:32:39)

Hi Ukiah! I recognize your sceen name from the Talkbass forum and also because my wife is from Ukiah. (I know a few bluegrass players up there)
As a bass player and budding flamenco guitar player myself, I'd join the chorus and say that bass in flamenco is unnecessary and in the way.

Now, let's talk about "Nuevo Flamenco". Well, you know how in Jazz, you can have in one side the 1950's smoky clubs where hipsters and French intellectuals went to listen to John Coltrane? Well that would be flamenco in comparison. A pure art form.
And then, in the other side, there is this thing called "smooth jazz", the Kenny G thing that retired people in the suburbs of America listen to in their hot tubs while drinking wine after a long day on the golf course? Well that would be Nuevo flamenco in comparison. Nuevo Flamenco is at Flamenco what smooth jazz is at jazz. I have no doubt that people would love some nuevo flamenco if you played that in the Russian River wineries but I doubt too many guys here are into that.

So yes in this commercial incarnation of flamenco you usually hear some bass playing, usually based on a rhumba rythm behind some reverb drenched spanish guitars. My wife, yes the one from Ukiah, said that if she hears me playing one more rhumba she is going to blow a gasket by the way.

In my opinion bass playing is a lot more interesting and pertinent in North African influenced music. Check out bands like Radio Tarifa or Gnawa Diffusion.



danonearth -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 22 2017 23:37:12)

I am not sure this link will work, but this is an amazing video of flamenco on upright bass by Adam Ben Ezra - https://web.facebook.com/AdamBenEzra/videos/10154843583971312/



Mark2 -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 23 2017 22:29:31)

How is that flamenco?

quote:

ORIGINAL: danonearth

I am not sure this link will work, but this is an amazing video of flamenco on upright bass by Adam Ben Ezra - https://web.facebook.com/AdamBenEzra/videos/10154843583971312/



Piwin -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 23 2017 22:46:51)

I thought the inspiration was pretty clear. Beyond the key he's playing in, you can feel a compas por bulerias. A lot of the phrasings wouldn't work in actual flamenco and he's not strictly adhering to the compas all the time but it does have that feel to it.

This could relate to that other thread where we were talking about elitism and some of the things that were said there. I'd have a much easier time understanding where someone's coming from if they said this guy was playing flamenco than someone saying Rodrigo and Gabriela are playing flamenco.



Leñador -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 24 2017 0:50:31)

Yeah it sounds like he either knows what bulerias is and doesn't quite have it right or just a coincidence that the song he made up sounds close to bulerias and he's never heard of it.



Mark2 -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 24 2017 3:50:36)

I agree the phrasing IS weird, and the "footwork" has nothing to do with any dance steps I remember hearing. All that slapping..........You don't get a pass for being close, or being inspired by. Not strictly in compas por bulerias but that's ok cause he's a bass player? Or does that apply to tuba players too? Not guitar players that's for sure. Why does the instrument matter? If that makes me an eliitist ok. The guy is a good player, but what has that to do with flamenco? Miles was inspired by flamenco and I like his record with the "solea" on it, but I never considered it flamenco. If Miles isn't, this isn't. In my humble but elitist opinion. Frankly this reminds me of Roy Clark playing malagueña. Decent attempt to emulate but not the actual article.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

A lot of the phrasings wouldn't work in actual flamenco and he's not strictly adhering to the compas all the time but it does have that feel to it.

This could relate to that other thread where we were talking about elitism and some of the things that were said there.



estebanana -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 24 2017 4:23:17)

What that bass player is doing is totally cool, not flamenco really, but cool. The bad part is all the pretentious hipsters sitting around with headphones and the shot of the tape machine....it's all so douchebaggy "we're the in crowd" looking.


This is in the same vein: Christine Walevska is one of the great cellists, she was born in Los Angeles and was Piatigorski's last student. She also studied with Enrico Bolognini also a great cellist but a cheesy composer. She plays this as an encore piece. Fauxmenco cheese.




Ricardo -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 24 2017 6:09:59)

Look, I am all for the fakemenco interpretations on strings other than guitar, but there is no excuse to play so far out of freakin tune. (The tap dancing bassist and the cellist....ugh)



Piwin -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 24 2017 6:48:28)

Oh I agree with you. I was just pointing out that I can see where someone's coming from by calling that flamenco. It just raises the issue of where and why we set the line where we do. The example you gave of Roy Clark is interesting. I don't know if you meant to imply that the original Malaguena de Lecuona is flamenco (that's the only "malaguena" I've ever heard him play). If so, I personnally don't think that it's flamenco. Others might. To me Clark is doing an emulation of an emulation. There are a lot of things PdL arranged and played that I also wouldn't put in the flamenco box. Like Tico tico and a lot of his Latin America stuff with Ramon. I appreciate those very much but I just don't consider them to be flamenco. But then that is possibly hypocritical of me because on the other hand I don't have any problem at all accepting the now all-pervasive cajon as flamenco. Anyways, it's all pretty irrelevant I guess as long as we enjoy the music. I just find this topic interesting, probably because I don't even understand clearly why I set the line where I do!



estebanana -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 24 2017 9:07:20)

Playing chords on a fret less instrument tuned in fifths will always present a challenge that even the greatest players can't nail 100% of the time. You can always rent a cello or bass for a few months and see if you can do better.



Mark2 -> RE: Advice for a bass player approaching flamenco (Jun. 24 2017 14:55:09)

And I also agree that Lecuona's piece is not flamenco. I guess the Clark comparison was not very good. I had just seen it online and I was struck by how much work he put into it, using his pick pretty skillfully to try to emulate the rasquedos. But sort of all for naught in a way, just like the bass player. I think Clark's was the more successful effort in that it was in fact a version of the piece, while the bass player did not represent bulerias. As far as seeing where someone is coming from in thinking the bass player was playing flamenco, I'm not sure what you meant.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

Oh I agree with you. I was just pointing out that I can see where someone's coming from by calling that flamenco. It just raises the issue of where and why we set the line where we do. The example you gave of Roy Clark is interesting. I don't know if you meant to imply that the original Malaguena de Lecuona is flamenco (that's the only "malaguena" I've ever heard him play). If so, I personnally don't think that it's flamenco. Others might. To me Clark is doing an emulation of an emulation. There are a lot of things PdL arranged and played that I also wouldn't put in the flamenco box. Like Tico tico and a lot of his Latin America stuff with Ramon. I appreciate those very much but I just don't consider them to be flamenco. But then that is possibly hypocritical of me because on the other hand I don't have any problem at all accepting the now all-pervasive cajon as flamenco. Anyways, it's all pretty irrelevant I guess as long as we enjoy the music. I just find this topic interesting, probably because I don't even understand clearly why I set the line where I do!



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