stained maple binding (Full Version)

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kominak -> stained maple binding (May 20 2017 20:27:21)

While pore filling rosewood back and sides, I stained my maple binding with rosewood dust/pumice. What is the best way to correct this?
Scrape? Sand with some 600 grit sandpaper? Try to remove stains with alcohol?
Binding has 3 coats of shellac sealer coats - is it possible that the rosewood dust is only above those sealer coats or is it more likely that I went through to bare wood?

Here are actual pictures:

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estebanana -> RE: stained maple binding (May 21 2017 2:06:50)

Oh that is touchy stuff. You can probably scrape very carefully and get the stain out. Then take pale clear shellac and seal the binding separately by using a narrow watercolor brush. Put on three or four coats. The continue French polish with fully over sealed binding.

If you have any deeply stained passages of maple then you can carefully spot bleach them with oxalic acid. Then wash the area with baking soda water mix to neutralize the bleaching process.

Let it dry a day and look at it. Hopefully you can scrape it out. Beware trying to remove the shellac from the maple with solvent, alcohol. That could make it worse. Stay with mechanical process of scrape or sand to prevent further color bleed.

You might think about making a dedicated scraper for this job. A small piece of scraper with a small wood block depth gauge super glued and lashed to it. That way you can cut a clean lne where rosewood and maple meet.

Go slow, breathe we've all been here once.

kominak -> RE: stained maple binding (May 21 2017 13:53:11)

Thank you , Stephen, I'll try to scrape it or lightly sand away as suggested.
Any idea how to avoid this in the future? I can't imagine how to pore fill with pumice and not at least touch the bindings...

estebanana -> RE: stained maple binding (May 22 2017 1:09:38)

Your welcome.

The way you keep the bleeding from happening is get a good water color brush that can cut a hard straight line and use it to put several layers of clear shellac on the binding before you start with the rosewood.

A brush called 'round point' is good maybe about 5mm in diameter. Synthetic bristles, nothing really expensive, but with fine bristles so it holds a lot of shellac and cut a fine line. Then put on the magnification visor and carefully work to the edge of all the binding.

Usually any 'bright' woods that you don't want to be stained by rosewood can be done with shellac sizing first.

When yo finish the maple bindings, go to the rosewood body and do the same thing with the brush, make a partition of shellac between the rosewood and the maple. Then really carefully body up the rosewood without going over the binding until the rosewood staining is 'fixed', that is it stops bleeding off.

For example when I glue a rosewood bridge to a top, I begin brushing on shells a few days ahead of the glue time and totally fix the rosewood. Water based glues don't act as a solvent for the bleeding, so one the bridge is down air tight and the top is sealed it's safe to French polish the rest of the top.

kominak -> RE: stained maple binding (May 22 2017 20:44:24)

Stephen, that's exactly what I did prior to pore filling - I carefully sealed just the binding (3 coats) and then sealed the rosewood back and sides.
Then when pore filling with pumice and alcohol, when I was filling the pores right next to the binding, doing the circular motion, part of my muneca went over to the binding and left there some of the pumice/rosewood dust mixture (I guess it's not the same as rosewood bleeding from contact with alcohol).
The good news is that it looks like it didn't penetrate the wood - it just stayed above the sealing coats. I tried to lightly sand it away with 600 grit sandpaper and it was easy to remove.
Thank you for your help, Stephen - if I tried to remove it with alcohol I think the rosewood color would penetrate the binding.

estebanana -> RE: stained maple binding (May 22 2017 23:15:32)

Good to hear it did not get the binding dirty.

This is one of those small operations that you learn a way through. A couple suggestions that may help. Treat the edges of the pumice process by flicking your hand movement towards the middle of the back away from the edge. So you are not rolling the pumice slurry over the edge. Also I think about bright bindings and I put more shellac on before any pumice to get a better seal on the rosewood. The rosewood is very likely still giving up color through the shellac sealing, there is not enough rosewood 'saw dust' to make that much color.
When FP a rosewood guitar I put a lot of shellac on first as a seal. I use a brush, paper towel or a folded piece of terry cloth and lay it on. If the bindings are already slick with shellac the first applications move right over the binding and any color that comes off can be wiped off. I also waste quite a bit of towel applicator by constantly folding under the color stained areas. You know when you've gotten the color sealed because it's not coming off on your applicator tool. Then I go a little farther and put on more shellac, because when you pore fill it is quite an abrasive process so extra shellac keeps the color in.

But here's where I go off course from regular FP process. I let the wiped on shellac dry for a couple days or even a week and let it get hard. Then I flat board sand it with a woven abrasive made for auto body work. The abrasive is similar to the 'micro mesh' abrasives, but it is woven. This material cuts and levels the hard shellac and it is made to 'track' over shallow spots and cut higher surfaces more accurately then sand paper. After a good leveling I put on more wiped shellac and use the woven abrasive again the next day. Then I pore fill and with a light hand pressure. Like a wiping perpendicular to the grain direction and pushing it across the grain and down in.

The product is called Assilex , it made by Kovax a Japanese company. You can get it on Amazon in most parts of the world. The SkyBlue color Assilex is equivalent to 600 sand paper, but it cuts much, much faster and does not leave scratch marks, the woven fibers are like millions of microscopic scraper blades. After a few days of wiping on shellac and cutting it back level you have virtually bodied up shellac on the guitar and can pore fill over thicker seal. Then cut that pore filler back and spot pore fill where you have rough spots. After that then you go to end the bodying process by regular French polish work with a pad. One or two sessions finishes the bodying and moves right into the final work.

I really, really dislike color rosewood bleeding, I just want the color sealed in no matter what. So I've been using the SkyBlue woven abrasive since I found it in 2011. I did an online search for abrasives of different kinds and found that one. I called the dealer and they sent my a sample, after that I ordered it by the box. I showed it to a guy who French polished professionally and he began using right way. He asked me to keep it a secret while he was handling a lot of work by a certain maker. But he's not doing as much so I've shared it lately.

The whole Clark / as told to Milburn process is great, but over complicated. I wanted to simplify it from the beginning. Once I had the woven abrasive I just rewrote the rule book for myself.

You just figure out a way to work the edges without the bleeding. And rosewoods sets are different in how much color they release, some are really not colorfast and bleed like crazy and other sets not at all.

I have some friends who make steel strings guitars who like to wipe out some of the color before binding, but I think there always more in there. I think the best you can do is shellac seal until there's minimal or no color coming off.

kominak -> RE: stained maple binding (May 23 2017 19:27:33)

Stephen, thanks a lot for sharing - I'm tempted to try your way. I even managed to find assilex sheets at a local car lacquer supplier. Do you know how many sheets do you use average per guitar? Is it to be used completely dry - no water, no oil? Do you also use the specialized sanding pad they sell?

estebanana -> RE: stained maple binding (May 23 2017 22:19:32)

I go through two to four sheets per guitar and they cost about 50 cents each. Use dry, but you can use wet later once the shellac is built up. Any hard expanded urethane foam block will work, but first get th one they sell to understand how the block should feel.

The stiffness of the block and the hook and loop, velcro, system work together to make a block that tracks over low spots a certain way that other blocks don't do. It;s make for contoured car surfaces, but it will track over lwo spots even on curved surfaces, regular hand sanding blocks don't really do the same thing. The Assilex block conform to curves yet only cut the high spots- guitars and car bodies are the the same thing with respect to contour.

kominak -> RE: stained maple binding (May 26 2017 8:24:05)

I'll give it a try. It's slightly more expensive around here (50eur for box with 20 sheets), but I can use it for other projects, too. Thanks once again, Stephen.

estebanana -> RE: stained maple binding (May 27 2017 0:24:31)

Each sheet is perforated and breaks in half, there are really 40 sheets. I use two or three per guitar. So it means about to 4 dollars per guitar, and saves much more than that in labor hours.

kominak -> RE: stained maple binding (Jul. 16 2017 19:09:00)

I just have to report - that assilex stuff is a joy to work with. Thanks, Stephen!

Here's how it turned out, I'm very happy with the result:

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constructordeguitarras -> RE: stained maple binding (Jul. 17 2017 0:45:13)


I really, really dislike color rosewood bleeding

The way I avoid rosewood color bleeding onto bridge tieblock bone edge strips is to seal the bridge using shellac from a spray can, available at my local hardware stores. The first coats need to be very light, dry spray, so they don't run and defeat the process.

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