Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (Full Version)

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cgrey999 -> Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 20 2017 18:01:59)

Against my better judgement I bought one and the label reads:

CONDE HERMANOS
Sobrinos de DOMINGO ESTESO
CONSTRUCTORES
Ano 1965
Gravia, 7 - Atocha, 53 MADRID

The 65 is hand written

So I assume it was made in the Gravia 7 or Atocha 53 shop by Julio Conde's staff,
but of course no idea.

I took pictures of the label and guitar, but I don't see how to add them to this posting.

The fret board is very dark. Maybe originally lacquered. So I don't think it is ebony.
The sound is fantastic. Even sounds like Flamenco when I play it.
Very sharp but deep in the bass, and golpe has the right sound.
A little beat up, but very good condition. Extremely light to hold and play.

I am interested in the approximate worth for "good" condition.

And it they didn't use ebony for the fret board what did they use on these guitars?

Fret board is very dark but has lighter colors in the grain at the sound hole end.
There are several I've seen on Ebay around the same year and condition.

It plays like butter and the sound is completely Flamenco even for me.

Thanks, Chris



cgrey999 -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 20 2017 18:18:34)

Okay I figured out how to attach pictures



RobJe -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 20 2017 19:51:44)

The green label, the rosette and this head design were used on the cheapest models, usually with lower grade materials. I don’t think that any of the brothers had a hand in making this guitar and anyway, Julio did not have much of a reputation as a luthier. In 1965 the brothers still had the small factory in Pozuelo de Alarcon that produced a range of guitars, many of them for export. Guitars with the Gravina/Atocha label looked very similar to these - just different labels.

The better news is that some of these guitars were very good in the all-important playing test. If you have got one like this that has survived, hang on to it. Value is not easy – as always what someone is prepared to pay. The Conde name always helps.

Rob



cgrey999 -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 20 2017 20:09:54)

Thanks for the reply Rob.

Can you say a ball park amount. I don't want to sell it, but curious.
Of the couple of these I've seen, people are trying to sell them for
$1400 to $1850 US. I am thinking it is too high a price.

When you say cheaper, you mean $400, $900, more, a lot less ?

Thanks, Chris



RobJe -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 20 2017 20:10:39)

Similar to this one?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Conde-Hermanos-2a-flamenca-blanca-60s-flamenco-guitar-incredible-sound-/222506701987?hash=item33ce6ed4a3:g:aKIAAOSw~y9ZBZNX

Rob



cgrey999 -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 20 2017 20:37:37)

Yes I would say similar to that one on Ebay.

So what do you think. 1960's prices were less.

I bought my Gibson L-5 Custom for $795 because I worked for the owner of a guitar store selling it. It listed for $1100 then. Now it's worth $6000 depending on condition.

I have no idea what these cheaper Condes sold for in 1965, nor what would be the price today.

Thanks, Chris



Echi -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 20 2017 21:35:58)

Hi, I saw some of them listed for 800 Euro (or less) and other guitars listed for 1500.
I'd say 1000 euro can be a reasonable price, given the guitar is in good condition.

As Robje pointed out, yours is a studio guitar but still one of those made in the Conde Workshop in Madrid.
Up to '64 the green label mentioned that the workshop was based in Madrid, Calle Pozuelo de Alarcon, where 5 people used to work.
The workshop was in the same building where Juliana Conde Pastor and Faustino used to live.
Two models were made there: the cheapest had a rounder shaped headstock and often a 3 pieces back, while the more expensive one, had a heastock still shaped like as in the Estesos.
Later the green label mentioned the 2 shops (Gravina and Atocha) and not anymore the workshop.
Beside that, the Condes used to sell guitars hand made but not signed (2nd class guitars). These guitars have the regular yellowish label and you can find them with 2 kind of headstocks, either media luna (half moon shaped) or Esteso. In the first case the guitar is indistinguishable from the regular 1st class but for some minor blemishhes, in the second case the guitar was probably made with cheaper materials.

Anyway, some of these guitars were poorly made but the general consensus is that often they were very good sounding.



cgrey999 -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 20 2017 21:55:34)

Thank you very much Echi.

My other purpose was to see if anyone knows about the fret board.
As I said not ebony of course. And looks about the same as the one on
Ebay Rob pointed out.

Mine has the 3 piece back with solid black inlay.

And where did you find so much information about Condes.
I find all the stuff on the net, but not what have said. Is there a book on them?



estebanana -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 21 2017 2:23:09)

I've seen those go for 3000.00 US if they sound good and are in clean condition. It's 1965 it's a 50 year old guitar and that situation they were made in is gone. No more of those. A 65 studio model in top condition is a kind of document. Don't sell it short.



Echi -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 21 2017 8:10:57)

The fretboard is rosewood, which is not necessarily a bad thing soundwise.

Regarding the price/historical value is always difficult to judge: in this case (as for many other makers) the market is variable for lack of information.
In my view, the first aspect to consider is how good it sounds and how wel it's made.
Your guitar either could be a little jewel or just poorly sounding, and obviously this matters.
Re the historical value, I see that in the net you can find Ramirez, Contreras, Manzanero or Bernabe' from the 60ties on the 3000-4000 $.
If you were in Madrid in 1965 probably each of them would have been more expensive than a 1st class Conde.
A Ramirez was more expensive than a Fernandez either.
Then of course something become more collectible than something else and as a consequence more expensive nowadays.
Beside the market, at the end of the day an old Conde is always a desiderable guitar.



estebanana -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 21 2017 9:12:30)

I sold one for 3500



Echi -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 21 2017 9:43:19)

You are a good seller.
I bought one for 400 £.



estebanana -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 21 2017 12:25:11)

But mine was pissed on by Nino Ricardo.



Echi -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 21 2017 13:40:17)

Well worth then [:D]

This the famous Nino Ricardo's Conde with the headstock "de catedral".



RobJe -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 21 2017 16:21:40)

quote:

Is there a book on them?


I am not aware of a book. Even the surviving relatives put out incorrect information.

Here is some stuff on labels.

Rob



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RobJe -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 21 2017 16:26:25)

Here are labels for cheaper guitars.



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cgrey999 -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 21 2017 19:16:04)

Thank you all for the information. Most helpful.



eccullen -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 21 2017 20:13:50)

Here is an odd label that I have.
The instrument is very nice.



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RobJe -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 21 2017 21:10:02)

Oh yes - I had forgotten that one!

ROb



sombra -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 26 2017 20:31:58)

muy buen tema!!



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 27 2017 10:04:50)

For general information, I was in Madrid in 1965 and Faustino Conde showed me one of his flamenco guitars that was priced at $350 US. It was higher priced than a first class Ramirez at $200 tourist price. And that particular guitar was considered less for investment than the Ramirez which sold for $900 retail in Dallas Texas at that time.

The professional price for a Ramirez was $125 US. These guitars were not priced in Euros at that time in history but basically in Pesetas.



sombra -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 27 2017 22:53:27)

increible el video de Payo Humberto!! muy buen documento!!



Erik van Goch -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 28 2017 11:35:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

It was higher priced than a first class Ramirez at $200 tourist price. And that particular guitar was considered less for investment than the Ramirez which sold for $900 retail in Dallas Texas at that time.

The professional price for a Ramirez was $125 US. These guitars were not priced in Euros at that time in history but basically in Pesetas.


My fathered ordered a classical Ramirez in 1962 which was send to him by mail. I'm not sure exactly what he paid but it was at least 1000,- and more likely 1500,- dutch guilders ($ 500-750,-). Do i understand that a guitar like that would have costed 125,- at the time when bought directly at the Ramirez workshop ? At the time what my father payed was basically a working mans year salary (it still is considering the fact that specific type of guitar is offered by online guitar shops for prizes up to 20.000 at precent day).



RobJe -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 28 2017 12:15:57)

quote:

At the time what my father payed was basically a working mans year salary


Such comparisons always bring sadness! Do consider historical exchange rates and import taxes and duties when you make comparisons.

In 1962 you could order (and collect from the shop in person) a blanca from Arcangel Fernandez for 170 USD. Sadly I couldn’t afford it at the time. In 1968 a Ramirez bought directly from the shop in Madrid was 280 USD. The “professional price” Tom refers to was not easily obtained. To get the total cost you need to add import duty and taxes – this added 100% for musical instruments imported into the UK. Luthiers in Spain automatically wrote a “cheap bill” a bill of sale that valued the guitar at about 20% of what you paid. Custom officers turned a blind eye to this, often deducting the price of the case (which was nearly duty free) before calculating what you had to pay. I think that those days have gone! Obviously this made it hard for dealers in the UK because players could have a short holiday in Spain and buy a guitar for less than the dealers had to charge. This was why UK dealer Ivor Mairants encouraged Manuel Reyes to make the cheaper “tipo C” guitar with minimal decoration in the early 60s.

Rob



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 28 2017 12:51:24)

quote:

The “professional price” Tom refers to was not easily obtained.


You are correct, as Paco Del Gastor offered to go buy one for me for $125, but I wanted to avoid any hassle so I bought it for $200 US.

I think the first class classical was selling for $350 at that time, in November of 1965.



Echi -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 28 2017 14:05:07)

I have somewhere a picture of the original listing prices (the price made to the Italian importer) both of Conde and Ramirez.
They are in are in pesetas and Ramirez was the dearest. I have no idea of the price you could get in the shop or the discounted price for pro-players.
Segovia and Sabicas contributed in making very appealing the name of Ramirez. Paco did the same for Conde later on.



Erik van Goch -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (May 28 2017 15:14:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

quote:

At the time what my father payed was basically a working mans year salary


Such comparisons always bring sadness! Do consider historical exchange rates and import taxes and duties when you make comparisons.


No sadness from the buyers site since that guitar turned out to be a miracle. It's sad however so much goes to others as the one(s) making the guitar. In the 70ties my father bought himself an 11 string alto guitar from Bolin in Stockholm. This time he went to collect it in person and was able to avoid import tax by staging he brought the instrument from the Netherlands to give a concert in Sweden (in case of meeting custom officers he prepared a fake concert program).



sombra -> RE: Conde Hermanos Blanca 1965 (Jun. 4 2017 14:10:11)

las guitarras conde de esos años son muy buenas!!



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