RE: What is it about a negra? (Full Version)

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NorCalluthier -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Apr. 14 2017 20:40:25)

Well, hello Andy,

Fancy meeting you here!

I just this morning got my first negra back from the French polishers, but the glue hasn't completely dried under the tap plates. I sent it off without stringing it up, so I'll just have to wait awhile before hearing how it sounds.

My instruments tend to be "mid-rangy" so I will be looking for the "hole where the music is supposed to go".

I'm quite familiar with padauk, but Coral---whazzat?

Cheers,

Brian



estebanana -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Apr. 15 2017 7:04:22)

Coral is the recent (??) way of saying not a blanca, nor a negra. Woods that are in between like walnut, or woods that have a reddish brown color, woods other than cypress or dark rosewood- Palo Escrito for example. They have a coral like glow. I was told non negras non blancas were called 'Rosas' but maybe that dealer made that term up.

'Pintos' are those stupid guitars that have one rosewood rib and one cypress rib and half cypress, half rosewood backs. Those I call 'schizophrenic'. John Shelton hates them too. [:D]

I'm a big advocate of the non rosewood flamenco alternatives. Black Acacia for example is one of my favorite woods. Amazing stuff. Osage Orange as well. Ovankol for example would be a 'coral'.

Rosewoods are becoming political hot potatoes, for a lot of reasons. I think it is an important idea to advocate for a wider selection woods from which to make serious guitars. Not that we should halt making rosewood guitars, but be ready for a different future for future makers. If we want guitar making to be working in 50 years we probably need to adjust and adapt to a wider range of woods. And prepare customers for a view point that is modern and not locked into the old Segovia paradigm of light vs. dark. He and his cronies used that as a wedge issue to separate themselves from flamenco and popular guitarists. We are still living with the fallout from the 'classical' rosewood vs. cypress flamenco schism they created. It's time to close the loop.



Echi -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Apr. 15 2017 8:24:20)

I've been told "Coral' is how they call a kind of padauk in Spain.
Pedro de Miguel and others came out with such a wood for back and sides, and there was a was a good request for a while.
Manuel Bellido went instead for Palo escrito and he still makes guitar with such a wood, even though I suppose he sells more guitars with traditional looking woods.

I agree with Estebana.
For how the things are nowadays, it's for sure better to look for alternatives to rosewoods.



jshelton5040 -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Apr. 15 2017 14:04:30)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana


'Pintos' are those stupid guitars that have one rosewood rib and one cypress rib and half cypress, half rosewood backs. Those I call 'schizophrenic'. John Shelton hates them too. [:D]


I wouldn't say I "hate" them, more I "loathe" them although I suppose that's pretty much the same thing. I'm getting more interested in the various walnuts lately and may try some. There's really not a problem with using the farm raised E.I.Rosewood since it's a managed resource and I have no qualms about the lighter color and wider grain. Some of it has some very interesting figure as well. We're building a negra right now with cedar top and farm raised E.I.RW, the back has a really nice looking curl in the grain which will look great with a finish.

Yesterday we delivered our first double top blanca and it was a massive hit with the customer. I must say I am very impressed with the voice of this one.



estebanana -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Apr. 15 2017 14:23:26)

Fear and Loathing, yeh I loathe them also. Hate is too simple.

Congrats on the double.



NorCalluthier -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Apr. 16 2017 16:00:06)

Hello Guys,

Thanks for the explanations of "Coral".

Ahhh yes, wood...

The late John Gilbert, classical maker in Woodside CA---SF Bay Area---was noted for consistency. You ordered a Gilbert, you got a Gilbert, and no mistake.

Shortly after I resumed guitar making in 1993, John spoke to our luthier group NCAL about his methods. He tested his top wood for stiffness and density, and used only tops that came within his acceptable range. I had just finished up a guitar that had turned out very well indeed---everybody wanted one---and I didn't know what I had done right.

I have a hodge-podge technical background, and John's wood testing seemed like a good idea. I did a bit of reading to find out what luthiers had done in the way of wood testing, and decided to begin testing for density, long and cross grain stiffness, and "Q". The Q test is a way of putting a number on how long the tap tone lasts.

I was amazed at the variation! Factors of three, four, and five were common. In testing Sitka tops from the same section of a Sitka log, I found one top that was NINE times stiffer across the grain than another one!

The quality of the re-saw job is important here. I've rejected 30 year old Euro-spruce tops that were well quartered half way, and then the end grain lines became up to 10 degrees off quarter. The cross grain stiffness dropped to a low level as a result.

So I've been testing tops, backs, bridges and now even fingerboards for over 20 years. The one thing I will say for sure is that "wood varies", and dramatically!

I don't see a way to attach a .pdf of the wood testing notes that I give to my students., so email me and I'll forward it to you.

brian@lessonsinlutherie.com

Cheers,

Brian



NorCalluthier -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Jun. 30 2017 22:18:06)

Hello All,

Well the negra that I mentioned in a couple of earlier posts has been strung up for about a month. I've played it a bit, and every time I do, I'm impressed with how good an instrument it is, and it's not nearly broken in yet!

The most gratifying thing about it is that it confirms the importance that I've always attached to wood testing. The Euro spruce top that's on it has the best test numbers that I've come across in testing well over 200 sets in the last 20 or so years. They were so good that I ran my tests over again to check them for accuracy!

I've got a new website underway that will be "on the air" about mid August. It will have the negra and several other guitars demonstrated on it, as well as a bunch of videos on my wood testing and voicing methods.

In the meantime, if you're interested, I can email you .pdf's of the wood testing and voicing notes that I give to my students. Send a request direct to my email address so that I can send a reply with the .pdf's attached:

brian@lessonsinlutherie.com

Cheers,

Brian



Cervantes -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Jul. 14 2017 16:56:20)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Culpepper

For me blancas have more of an emphasis on the middle strings and usually play por medio better than negras. Negras have a little more sparkle on the high end and a fatter bass.
A Canadian luthier who I respect says that negras have "a hole in the middle where the music is supposed to go". I also prefer the punchy, percussive mid-range sound of blancas but to me the best of both worlds is Padauk/Coral.


As I was reading this thread before I even got to this I was thinking about that Coral guitar you built recently. That had such a great sound judging from the recording and looked way better than any rosewood guitar.



BarkellWH -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Jul. 14 2017 23:08:13)

quote:

So, what do you look for in a negra that you don't find in a blanca?


Nothing. Frankly, for flamenco I much prefer blancas over negras. In 2007, for some reason, I thought I would like a negra and contacted Vicente Carrillo directly to make me a flamenco with Madagascar Rosewood back and sides. It was a beautiful guitar and had a nice sound. But it did not have the attack and punch of a good blanca. I sold it and now own three blancas, including a Gerundino and a Manuel Adalid, as well as my original Sanchis.

Bill



NorCalluthier -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Jul. 14 2017 23:47:22)

Hello William,

Well, I am of two minds now that I've been playing this East Indian and Euro-spruce negra for a month or so. I've always played and preferred blancas, and I certainly like working with our local Mendocino cypress---just finished a classical out of it. The negra is a different breed of cat, that's for sure, but I keep being inspired to improvise on it. It's my #23, and you can hear it on my clunky and unfinished website at this link:

http://brianburnsguitars.com/my-guitars

I spend a lot of time and energy working to get consistency in my guitars, and they certainly are similar. But, being made from a natural material like wood, there is a fair amount of variation. The Euro-spruce soundboard on this particular negra had the best test numbers that I have encountered in testing over 200 top sets. Its response is strong over the whole range. So I wouldn't dismiss negras as a category without trying a few different ones.

I'm going to try an "ultralight negra" using some low density Italian spruce, and a lower density Indian rosewood set of back and sides, to see if that will tend more to the blanca end of the spectrum.

Cheers,

Brian



hhmusic -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Jul. 24 2017 8:06:30)

quote:

I'm going to try an "ultralight negra" using some low density Italian spruce, and a lower density Indian rosewood set of back and sides, to see if that will tend more to the blanca end of the spectrum.


Well, having built exactly zero guitars, but having played many dozens, from dozens of makers, my impressions are that:

Rosewood is heavier, stiffer and more resonant, and a guitar made from it has a stiffer feel under the right hand in particular, a longer sustain, a boomier voice, and as Andy mentioned, more bass and high treble and less in the middle. I agree with Stephen: I don't like it.

Of the many Indian rosewood negras I've played, there were only 2 I actually liked -- and I bought them. Yes, I'm finally getting to my point...

They're both quite a bit lighter than most negras. Closer to but not quite like a cypress guitar, with just a bit more robustness, which I do like.

SO, I would think if you went for an ultralight, or at least lighter weight, negra, that would yield a more 'flamenco' guitar. That would be my vote.

Side note: On the Janka chart it appears that EIR is harder than BRW. I have played more BRW negras that I liked than EIR negras, in fact have come to the conclusion that EIR usually doesn't make a good flamenco. Maybe the hardness also affects the sound negatively.

Other side note: I think walnut has promise. Lighter weight, easy to work, beautiful, appropriate color for a negra, available in great quality for reasonable prices, and comes from right here in the USA. I've heard eastern black walnut is better than California / claro, again because it's lighter.

Anyway, that's my free advice -- it may be worth what you paid for it!



constructordeguitarras -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Jul. 24 2017 14:24:44)

In my guitar building, I have found that Indian rosewood negras always sound more like blancas than Bolivian- or Brazilian rosewood negras do.



NorCalluthier -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Jul. 24 2017 15:28:23)

Hello Harry and Ethan,

I agree that the lower density rosewoods are going to get closer to the sound of a cypress guitar. But, I'm fond of saying "When it comes to wood, all generalizations are false".

Density, cross and long grain stiffness, and duration of tap-tone ("Q") are all independent of each other. The only ones that track each other at all are density and long grain stiffness, and they only do that about 30% of the time.

I need to keep emphasizing that all that matters to me is what the player says. I came to guitar making as a flamenco player and teacher, and though I use an engineering approach---or reverse engineering---I'm after the thrill of playing a really good instrument. So far, my wood testing and voicing seems to be helping to produce that.

I have a lot of respect for builders that use the traditional methods and make good guitars. I came under the influence of a bunch of engineers and physicists---mostly musicians BTW---at a tender age, and I just see the problem of building really good instruments from that point of view.

Cheers,

Brian



keith -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Aug. 5 2017 11:13:26)

There are always those exceptions to the rule that disrupt what we perceive as what is a flamenco guitar. Manolo Sanlucar played/plays a Ramirez classical is a good example.



Ricardo -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Aug. 6 2017 16:34:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

There are always those exceptions to the rule that disrupt what we perceive as what is a flamenco guitar. Manolo Sanlucar played/plays a Ramirez classical is a good example.


Good point, although, I have mentioned before how Sanlucar's guitar used to bug me because I was struggling with a similar guitar learning flamenco and felt that the things I really didn't like about MY guitar jumped out at me in Manolo's sound (especially the "flamenco" movie version). That was however until I saw THIS, and must admit Tomatito gets a great sound out of that thing!




RobJe -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Aug. 7 2017 21:44:46)

quote:

That was however until I saw THIS, and must admit Tomatito gets a great sound out of that thing!


At last we have the definitive answer. A good negra sounds just like a good blanca - in the right hands



Schieper -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Aug. 8 2017 9:50:58)

Sorry to feel the urge to add to the "definitive answer" above.

Roughly 9 months ago I went to the shop to buy a flamenco guitar. My ear was set to the warm and somewhat dark and whooly sound of my cheap rosewood classical guitar (plus strings I preferred never to change cause old strings add some comfort).

Anyways, the guy let me try various flamenco's form EUR 500-2.000,- and within 30 min or so, I fell in love with he sound of the Brequet Negra which seemed very clearly
more rich, full and right compared to the blanca's. So I bought that one.

Even after going back to the shop I was convinced the Negra was tonal by far better to me.

At the current standpoint in my Flamenco travels, I have come to appreciate that for me Flamenco is a much more deliberate an physical style of guitar playing with different finger techniques that open up new tonal avenue's. Now applying apayando's or tirando's or god knows what they are called :-) opens up the musicality of these blanca's for me.

So, concluded my next guitar (after I mastered my first Sevillana) will very likely be a blanca or at least "crisper" guitar to give my Alegrias and Fandango/more joyful playing. After consideration I decided I will keep the Negra cause resale is **** anyway, its a great guitar and completely suitable for flamenco. And I crack an awesome blues out of that :-)



constructordeguitarras -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Aug. 8 2017 12:28:02)

In reality, every guitarist needs about a dozen different guitars, preferably made by local luthiers.[:D]



NorCalluthier -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Aug. 8 2017 19:02:08)

Hello Schieper and Ethan,

I'm a bit more modest in my advice about how many guitars a player needs---I say three:

1. A Bulerias guitar---ultra lightweight blanca with low action---a snare drum would do almost as well.

2. A Granadinas-Tarantas guitar---a Negra would be my choice there.

3. A Soleares guitar---an "Arcangel" style heavier blanca. Truth be known, a good soleares guitar will do everything pretty darn well.

I've now played my #23 Negra for some weeks, and I find that it demands more from me as player, but it gives more back.

My wife, a classical pianist, had a similar experience years ago when we traded in her old Bechstein grand on a Hamburg Steinway model C concert grand---we had just sold a business and had some money for the first time! The Steinway demanded better technique, but my God, what a sound!

Cheers,

Brian



NorCalluthier -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Aug. 10 2017 17:38:34)

Hello again,

I forgot :

#4 A Siguiriya guitar---A whipped old blanca, with almost no sustain, that is all choked up with grief.

Brian



mark indigo -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Aug. 10 2017 22:49:12)

quote:

In reality, every guitarist needs about a dozen different guitars, preferably made by local luthiers.


Please convince my girlfriend and my bank manager, and point out to the local luthier that a flamenco guitar is not a classical guitar made with cypress back and sides....



BarkellWH -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Aug. 11 2017 1:19:45)

quote:

At last we have the definitive answer. A good negra sounds just like a good blanca - in the right hands


Then why not obtain a good blanca? Why get a negra that sounds like a blanca when you can have the real thing--a good blanca, if what you are looking for is the sound of a good blanca?

Bill



estebanana -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Aug. 11 2017 2:19:06)

quote:

quote:

In reality, every guitarist needs about a dozen different guitars, preferably made by local luthiers.


Please convince my girlfriend and my bank manager, and point out to the local luthier that a flamenco guitar is not a classical guitar made with cypress back and sides....


And by 'local' he really means blanca makers from the extreme southern tip of Japan.



estebanana -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Aug. 11 2017 2:40:43)

quote:


Good point, although, I have mentioned before how Sanlucar's guitar used to bug me because I was struggling with a similar guitar learning flamenco and felt that the things I really didn't like about MY guitar jumped out at me in Manolo's sound (especially the "flamenco" movie version). That was however until I saw THIS, and must admit Tomatito gets a great sound out of that thing!


Tomatito, has a more 'special' thumb than most people. I think a lot of his sound come form his Lloyd's of London insured worthy thumb. He has a way of punching through the doggyness of a negra.

He's got an air hose coupler installed in his upper arm and he plugs into a compressor that drives his alzapua like an air hammer.



Stu -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Aug. 11 2017 8:52:15)

quote:

I hate rosewood guitars. I call it Arsewood.


[:D]

I love it that the video and featured guitar on your homepage is an 2015 Arsewood!!



Schieper -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Aug. 11 2017 10:18:25)

ah, 3 is a bit to little. You also need a red on and a peghead one. Just for joy :-)

And then I learned last week that you still can buy real gut string. So maybe some nice classical to string with this :-)

And, a fender telecaster. One in white and one in soap blue with a blue motter of perl "golpadore". A gypson SG..I would love to play the banjo for a while. A hollow body... some classical/flamenco from beginning of last century!

And some real hammerred down 50 euro ebay flamenco. Dry with 0 sustain.

Yeah, if money was no limiting factor I probably would by a huge guitar store and keep the door sign on "permanently closed". Of course you would all be welcome to come and play :-) cause nothing is more satisfying than shared joy!



estebanana -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Aug. 11 2017 12:36:17)

quote:

quote:

I hate rosewood guitars. I call it Arsewood.




I love it that the video and featured guitar on your homepage is an 2015 Arsewood!!


Pay to play baby, pay to play.

That one is Madagascar Arsewood, a great guitar.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Aug. 11 2017 13:37:39)

quote:

Please convince my girlfriend and my bank manager, and point out to the local luthier that a flamenco guitar is not a classical guitar made with cypress back and sides....


Perhaps your most local luthier is not the one to buy a flamenco guitar from. How close are you to Seattle, Washington, USA?

Your banker should be made aware of the investment value of a good guitar.

For your girlfriend, you might break the news to her (that you bought another guitar) in a setting like this:



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



mark indigo -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Aug. 11 2017 14:44:06)

quote:

Perhaps your most local luthier is not the one to buy a flamenco guitar from. How close are you to Seattle, Washington, USA?

Your banker should be made aware of the investment value of a good guitar.

For your girlfriend, you might break the news to her (that you bought another guitar) in a setting like this:


[:D][:D][:D]

Unfortunately I am quite a distance from Seattle, or anywhere in the USA (or Japan). However, I am not deterred by the disappointing experiences with the most local luthiers who I guess are essentially classical guitar makers who offer a "flamenco" model [or their idea of it], and will continue to look further afield - there are others I am aware of that don't involve a plane flight!



NorCalluthier -> RE: What is it about a negra? (Aug. 11 2017 16:01:54)

Hello All,

A wise Roman said, a couple of millennia ago:

De gustibus non est disputandum, "In matters of taste, there can be no disputes"

Cheers,

Brian



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