RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (Full Version)

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sorin popovici -> RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (Jan. 30 2006 10:30:02)

Ricardo , can u look at my picture ...and tell if I am gipsy?

I have the big eyebrowns, big nose ...but my name is popovici.My mum and pap
say that popovici is serbian (and that my grandpap comes from a village called "sarbi"
(serbs),and that we have nothing with the gipsies ...they are
kind of narrowminded about it ,but it's very hard for me to do smth about it.

Miguel ,I was looking for an mp3 of gipsy romanian music last night.I will find some , but
it's hard nowdays to tell apart what is authentic and what is not.In flamenco all seems
not so much complicated as they are a lot of well known gipsy artists.Here is tough to say
what is authentic or not cause of the mixtures, I hear a lot gipsy music with romanian and
serbian influences.It's hard to tell them apart ,in the end probably what's good music is good music ...but sometimes that hard to say also.
In flamenco I like cause they kept the guitar as a central element , here ...since the
aparition of keyboards and processed sound ...things tend to have more bad taste.I hate
for example computerized strings ensemble on mp3s ,sounds very artificial to me.Depends
in what music do u use these things,but to use them when playing folk music ..sounds so
kitsch (i hope i got the spelling right).



Ryan002 -> RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (Jan. 30 2006 11:09:48)

Does anyone happen to know how the Rom ended up being labelled as thieves?



Miguel de Maria -> RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (Jan. 30 2006 14:15:38)

When they started playing falsetas without paying royalties....



ouch!



Tenshu -> RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (Jan. 30 2006 16:55:28)

I know two manouche gypsies, both blind, both friends of my guitar teacher. My guitar teacher / mentor has lived among the gypsies for a while. He says it's impossible for a gadje / payo to be regarded by gypsies as an equal. A few people in this thread refer to gypsy 'friends'... I have my doubts. Or maybe times have changed.

When my mentor gave his birthday party, it was for a very select group. There were the two blind gypsies, one of their fathers, three russian guys I never saw before (possibly gypsy as well). Interestingly, I was invited as well.

They were all very distrusting of me. When they came in, nobody of them greeted me. They looked at me only from the corners of their eyes. It was very intimidating.

I felt really uneasy at first. They were running all over the place, like little boys, drinking and laughing, and shy as I was, I just sat there and tried to fade into the background. Every ten minutes someone would jump up and run towards the CD player to play a new disk (including, but not limited to: Tuvan throat singing, django, etc...) . Then the 'juerga' started for real, with accordeons and violins popping up out of nowhere.

Words can not express.

Then my teacher looked at me with this mischievous grin, and mentioned the name Camaron. One of the blind gypsies started his journey into music with flamenco when he was a little boy. Of course he demanded that I got up to get a guitar, and play por buleria. I even got one olé !!!

Then everyone shouted palos at me to play. I played por seguiriya, por solea, and even a bit of granaina. Then out of the murmuring voices, the blind guy again spoke up and said 'excuse me, it's been a while'. Then this sound emerged from deep inside his body, from deep inside his soul. It was hauntingly beautiful. Buleria can only sound like this out of a gypsy chest. I accompanied, but apogado.

At the dinner table (this in itself is a fiesta with gypsies), he managed to find me and he talked about Camaron, and cante. I promised to burn some Duquende and Manuel Torre to disk for him.

And, believe it or not, a few of them (everyone except for the Russians) shook my hand when I left at six am (afterwards I heard they went on with the fiesta till 11 am). I heard stories of gypsies smashing guitars on the head of a guy who touched them and invaded their personal space. And I managed to do it and am still alive to talk about it today.

I have no illusions that I'll ever be accepted into this inner circle that's so characteristic for gypsies, but I have established at least some (a teenyweeny bit) respect.

Edit: Oh, and get this... the 'father' I talked about once went to his wife's mother, to *ask* her if he could hit his wife! LOL!



JBASHORUN -> RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (Jan. 30 2006 20:14:06)

quote:

My Grandmother was well known in her neighbourhood ( Splott, by the docks in Cardiff) for reading tealeaves and charming away warts.


Kate, was that a serious statement, or were you just pulling my leg?! I thought it was just in the movies that gypsies did that stuff. Like reading peoples' fortunes...


"cross my palm with silver..."

"You will lead a long and happy life..."


Is this "esoteric" aspect really a part of their culture?


James



sorin popovici -> RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (Jan. 30 2006 20:29:58)

nice story tenshu....is that why u want to sing ?



Tenshu -> RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (Jan. 30 2006 21:05:43)

quote:

nice story tenshu....is that why u want to sing ?


It's one of the bigger reasons... I was so blown away by it, and it conclusively proved to me that you don't need to have the rajo, the roughness in your voice to be able to sing the duende. I'll never get there, but the road will be interesting nonetheless.



Kate -> RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (Jan. 30 2006 21:11:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN

quote:

My Grandmother was well known in her neighbourhood ( Splott, by the docks in Cardiff) for reading tealeaves and charming away warts.


Kate, was that a serious statement, or were you just pulling my leg?!


Hi James

Yes I was serious. Dukkering is quite common though maybe not among every Gypsy group. One of my first boyfriends was Romanichal and his Grandmother read my palm, threw runes and even had a crystal ball to see if I was the one for him. I wasn't.

Kate



Kate -> RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (Jan. 30 2006 21:26:03)

That was a great story Tenshu, so you were welcomed into their home and fed so you were accepted. I know of Gypsies who will throw away crockery used by non Gypsies ( Jews have similar purity laws and will have special plates etc for guests) and certainly there is some truth to what you say about them not trusting the gadje but it depends on the ethnic group. Romanichal in Britain for example have interbred so much with non Gypsies it is almost impossible to say they are tatcho and that is also possibly true in Spain nowadays. I know of many many mixed marriages. However there is a deep distrust of the gadje system, not surprisingly when you think of their history, not allowed to own property, not allowed to settle, not allowed to travel, a price on their heads, the holocaust, forced sterilisations, forced evictions, branded as thieves etc etc. Sorin talked about the political debate in Rumania about Gypsies and only recent there a politician there made a statement saying that Gypsies were sub human. There's a long way to go to creating trust.


Kate



sorin popovici -> RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (Jan. 31 2006 11:20:55)

kate , i dont know about this ....can u give the name of the politician ,as i didnt hear about this.I mean ....it will be a surprise for me ,cause I thought we covered this ground sometime ago and that type of radical statements dont exist anymore(at least not in public...what people
say in their own homes ,this will take some time to modify).

Romanians are quite touchy on this subject ,but there are some things that didnt help
either.For example Jean Marie Lupin (quite known radical french politician) said about
Romania that we are "a nation of gipsies" and he didnt say it in the good way.That was
like feeding all the radicals here....u cant be very surprised that after that some people
will missinterpret this and go to the other extrem and be "not so friendly" to french.
Ofcourse nothing happend in the end,but for a moment some radicals gained some publicity
and that's bad.
So hard to talk about this ,and be calm about it.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (Jan. 31 2006 13:45:10)

Kate,
so, you are gitana? I am surprised to hear that, don't you have blue eyes and blond hair? Or am I misremembering your looks?



Kate -> RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (Jan. 31 2006 17:21:39)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Kate,
so, you are gitana? I am surprised to hear that, don't you have blue eyes and blond hair? Or am I misremembering your looks?



No not at all, that would make me Spanish. Sigh, if only, then maybe I could sing and dance instead of being made fun of [:@] I'm made in England, Welsh parents, but generations back I have a Sinti ( German/Italian Gypsy) Great Great Grandfather.

And you remembered the blue eyes but I've never been blond. I've got dark hair.

Kate



Miguel de Maria -> RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (Jan. 31 2006 22:42:54)

Kate,
oh! I got it now :)



Crows -> RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (Feb. 1 2006 8:47:28)

Hi Miguel,

Apologies for butting in here.

This might be of use though - have you heard Fanfare Ciocarlia? Wild and traditional (no doubt I will be corrected now), also the compilation 'Suburban Bucharest' is a good starting point.

Balkan Gypsy music is rich and varied, there are some fine musicians and singers. I have been exploring for about a year now and it's been very rewarding. It's a major part of my musical life now.

The book 'Princes Amongst Men' by Garth Cartwright is an absolute essential read if you are going to dig in.

All the best, Andy.



Kate -> RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (Feb. 1 2006 19:41:55)

Basically my Great Grandmother ( who my Dad can remember) was the last full blooded Gypsy in the family. The rest of us since then are mongrols [;)] but we still pretend to be Italian.

Kate



Kate -> RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (Feb. 1 2006 19:51:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sorin popovici
i dont know about this ....can u give the name of the politician


Sorry for delay in replying but spent last night looking for the article. It was a few years ago, maybe two when I was sent it with a petition to sign to protest which was to be sent to the EU. Anyway I cant find it but a friend of mine who is the chairman of the Australian Roma Association has written to the editor of the Roma news to ask, so I'll get back to you.

I've heard quite a lot of the Roma and their problems in Rumania, amazing they seem to cause so much trouble when they are 2.5 % of the population. I can imagine it is a difficult subject. I found this article while I was hunting around
http://condor.depaul.edu/~rrotenbe/aeer/aeer13_1/Gozdziak.html

Also for the American on the forum I was sent the following article from the LA Times today. I was amazed to see they have a department which investigates Gypsy criminal activity. Its a shame the emphasis seems to be on Gypsy and not Criminal.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-me-gypsy30jan30,0,7784207.story?page=1&coll=la-headlines-frontpage

Thanks also to Crows for the heads up on the book " Princes of Men" had not heard of this but looks very interesting.

Kate



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