RE: Did millennials kill music? (Full Version)

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estebanana -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 11 2017 15:16:58)

You're a slacker as a music killer and you get off on it!



Piwin -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 11 2017 15:37:35)

Quality over quantity.

PS: If you're listening, please don't kill me CIA. I wouldn't kill anyone, except perhaps the guy who invented those pointless noise machines that are high heels and anyone who claims Wisconsin makes better cheese than France.



BarkellWH -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 11 2017 17:03:56)

quote:

Robert Hughes wrote a book about culture and victim hood called 'Culture of Complaint'.

On the topic of white working class, that label is a logical fallacy. The white working class does not exist. Clinton I don't think felt entitled to the White House as much as miscalculated how racist and sexist America really is. The so called downtrodden white working class is playing to victim hood right now, that the reason they feel they are in dire straights is because they voted for Republicans for four decades and those politicians raped them.


Robert Hughes has always been among my favorite cultural critics. He has a rapier wit and always hits his targets with precision strikes.

The "White Working Class" is just a term to describe a segment of American society in a way that most people can understand. The "White Working Class" indeed considers itself a "victim," every bit as much as every other ethnic, cultural, and social group. In my opinion, it is just joining the chorus of those in our fragmented society who think that "identity" equals "being."----"I identify as a [ethnic, social, cultural] victim, therefore I am," a perverse variation of the Cartesian "Cogito ergo sum."

Regarding White Working Class racism, it certainly exists, just as a form of "soft-core" racism exists in most elements of American society (and that of other countries and cultures as well, by the way). Nevertheless, racism is far from the whole story. Post-election studies of the "Rust Belt" (White Working Class) counties in Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania that swung their votes to Trump this election were instructive. Those very same counties by and large voted for Obama in the 2008 election. That demonstrates that something other than racism was the driving force. One could speculate that in 2008 those voters voted for the change Obama represented, thinking his policies would enhance their lives. When they perceived his policies didn't deliver as anticipated, they voted for Trump, who appealed to their sense of grievance.

But returning to a U.S. Culture of Victimology, I don't think it serves anyone's purpose to constantly invoke "victimhood" as an excuse to justify failure to advance, whether it is invoked by ethnic, social, or cultural groups. To identify with particular groups as a "victim," whether as Blacks, Hispanics, Muslims, Christian Fundamentalists, or the White Working Class, is to join a chorus that represents the lowest common denominator whining at the highest decibel level.

Bill



Piwin -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 11 2017 18:23:10)

A few years ago I sat in on an interview with a Spanish photographer about his work on incarcerated minors in Western Africa. When asked whether he had a message for young people in France, he said that he did, that they should stop thinking they deserved anything in life, be grateful for what they have and fight for what they don't. I'm sure some of the young people he met in Africa did feel like victims, but they do not have the luxury to dwell on it.

I wonder if this "culture of victimology", as you called it, has anything to do with what Paul Piff from University of California called "the a**hole effect". He conducted a series of studies that indicated that wealth increases a person's sense of entitlement and their propensity towards narcissistic behavior. In other words, it showed that the more you have, the more likely you are to feel like you deserve the good life, even at the expense of others. Of course, he was talking about wealth as compared to the standard en vigueur in the US but I wonder if we can extrapolate that to a larger scale, a global scale. If so, then it would make perfect sense that the wealthiest countries in the world are the ones where this over-the-top sense of entitlement appears, even in those segments of the society that are not so wealthy compared to the national standard. The "culture of victimology" could then be viewed as just a side effect of being a wealthy country.



estebanana -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 12 2017 1:08:50)

quote:

Post-election studies of the "Rust Belt" (White Working Class) counties in Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania that swung their votes to Trump this election were instructive. Those very same counties by and large voted for Obama in the 2008 election. That demonstrates that something other than racism was the driving force. One could speculate that in 2008 those voters voted for the change Obama represented, thinking his policies would enhance their lives. When they perceived his policies didn't deliver as anticipated, they voted for Trump, who appealed to their sense of grievance.


I think the post election analysis got it wrong on that count. Sexism was a big factor, and Trump did not sway the Obama voter to change course. What happened was Trump woke another sector of the white public that felt it never counted. As soon as a woman became a viable candidate who made the nomination sexism played a big part, and Trump's awakening of a rigid patriarchal minded public that feels its male authority eroding was then mobilized. Remember now many Trump voters were new voters of returning voters who previously said politics did not provide a voice for them. It was a protest vote, but not as much an Anti Obama coalition vote as conservatives like to couch it. Remember that much of Republican opposition in Congress is based on visuals of Republicans not wanting to be seen agreeing with Obama and Dems. Even when the issues were fairly centrally located a deals cloud be hammered out Republicans stone walled causing disfunction which they hen spun to blame the Democrats for. John Boehner was ready to deal, his coalition would not allow him to go forward. Remember when he quit, he gave the finger to his former coalition and said to now Speaker Ryan you work with these unruly bastards? It reminds me of what Kissinger said to Nixon after failing to broker a deal with the North Vietnamese: "They are just tawdry sh*ts* Dick."

Post election analysis is like physics, if you are looking for waves you find waves, if you are looking for particles you find particles. The reason is we can't track individual voters to see if they turned, we only see blocks of voters and turning of tides. Remember also in the swing states the margins of victory were slim, the whole election was determined by 100,000 votes in three states, while the Democrat still won the popular vote by over 3 million. BTW my vote in CA only counted as 1/5th of a vote from someone in Montana- so by shear numbers Democrats are more popular.

Also factor in the Republican Gerrymandering efforts of 2010 which have proved effective in voter suppression of minorities- See yesterdays 35th District Court ruling in Texas that found redistricting did suppress votes and the action was found unconstitutional. The ruling is unlikely to be overturned even if appealed. Factor in that Republican lawmakers in 2010 stacked the deck in their favor in a once in an lifetime coup using the 2010 Census to redraw the district lines to exclude minority voters from participating in districts where they would have more voting power if left as a natural geographic-ethnic district.

If the opposition, Democrats, would have redrawn districts to downgrade the power of white voting blocks Republicans would have screamed bloody murder. Seriously, the bent of Republican ethics to give its own side an unconstitutional advantage is repugnant. If districts were drawn fairy and ethically several of the red states would turn blue in an instant. The State gubernatorial races would be more even with more Democrats winning governorships, and the resultant cabinets and other elected offices would be filled by other Democrats winning on coat tails. So we know by this analysis of redistricting that Americas Red /Blue mapping would look decidedly more Blue had the Republicans not hijacked the districting lines.

I feel it is an important thing for the rest of the world to understand that the mapping of America as a divided country is a false analogy, or a political illusion. On those grounds I refute the idea that the 2016 election was won by discontented whites, but really it was won by political maneuvering in 2010 which set up a dynamic that suppressed votes, among other political mechanisms.

The three Republicans that redrew the map in 2010 are basically cheaters who got away with political murder. Now the redress of grievance against the actionable and unconstitutional offense of illegally redrawing the districts is being heard in court. The 35th District Court ruling is vitally important and now will stand as a precedent for other districts. Slowly the districts will be redrawn and a new picture of the electorate will come into focus.



estebanana -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 12 2017 2:42:03)

And then there is this phenomena- Fake news- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-fake-news-russia_us_58c34d97e4b0ed71826cdb36?63g



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 13 2017 14:23:47)

And for a break from the always entertaining culture war and defense of oppressed majorities:




mark74 -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 14 2017 21:15:45)

Can we just agree that millennials killed the guitar?



Piwin -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 14 2017 21:59:15)

I read an argument somewhere (can't find the link sorry!) of someone who was saying he thought it had to do with "barriers of entry".
Basically, when guitar really started gaining ground in pop music, the barrier of entry was very low. You can learn a 12-bar blues very quickly and have fun with that. But things got gradually more complicated as guitarists were constantly trying to find new grounds to explore, culminating in the 80s when guitar solos were almost at the center of many pop songs. With that, the barrier of entry kept on rising and wannabe guitarists just decided it wasn't worth the effort (hard to listen to say a Van Halen solo and say, yeah I can have fun with that in a few weeks...). And then it went full circle in the 90s with genres like grunge that considerably lowered the barrier of entry. Kind of like there was nowhere else left to go so they just went back to the beginning, looping the loop.
Nowadays guitar solos are basically nowhere to be found in "mainstream" music, except perhaps in country music (?).
The way I see it, guitar's time in the limelight is pretty much over. It won't be the first nor the last instrument to go through the cycle of trends. One of the upsides of the internet though is that it's easier than ever before to keep a niche community going.



Dudnote -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 15 2017 2:07:42)

Oleee Loro!!

Now I gotta get myself a parrot n play it Thomas Pavon 24/7 [:D][:D]



estebanana -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 17 2017 19:53:59)

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/20/nina-kravizs-severe-but-open-minded-techno?mbid=nl_Goings%20On%20-%20March%2017%20(1)&CNDID=44700074&spMailingID=10643968&spUserID=MTUyNjQ3ODEyODMyS0&spJobID=1121391089&spReportId=MTEyMTM5MTA4OQS2



mark74 -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 17 2017 20:12:06)




Ricardo -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 18 2017 18:51:43)

quote:

Nowadays guitar solos are basically nowhere to be found in "mainstream" music, except perhaps in country music (?)


Well, this was a couple years back but Rihanna is still modern mainstream music IMO. (Jump to 4:15 for the hot guitar)




estebanana -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 20 2017 1:30:50)

I probably would not enjoy to be in a room with Nina Kravitz' crowd, but her sophistication at manipulating musical material is advanced. She's a composer in a popular genre. All that knob twiddling is not all that easy.

I remember in the late 70's and into the 80's there was a counter movement to excessive guitar soloing in songs. I think the breakdown of the guitar God was the issue, the music was getting too guitar-solo-centric after Zed Zepplin and Van Halen came bands like Joy Division, Sonic Youth, Gang of Four, I could list a few dozen, that followed a kind of music making that depended on guitar base in the music, but deemphasized solo as the anchor climax of the song. Guitar solos that raged for 20 minutes became unfavored because it's not 'democratic' in the structure of the band. The guitar solo in the 70's in sense was both a dictator and a saint to be revered. I think the end of the 70's brought a closer look at th reasons why that came to be.

And during the reformation of guitar soloing in the 1980's there was also a counter reformation saying guitar soloing is still a base, but it's more raw. Dinosaur Jr. and J Maseys guitar solo based songs a case in point. Strictly speaking I think the first generation to question the guitar as the center were the Boomers in the late 70's.

So back to Kravtiz, the Dj format gave people a way to compose with fragments of music and make long compositions that develop and overall architecture of sound that only symphonists before that could command. I'm not saying Kravits and her predecessors are the equal of a Bruckner symphony in organization of structure and development, but it does give the music maker the opportunity to command big structural components and create long arcs of continuous thought in structure. If you look at it that way it may have killed guitar, but it also gave way to a popular format where structure is important, and that is not bad. The thing is I cant stand the dance format and the teen age zombies mindlessly tuning out.

But the argument is that to DJ returned music to the realm of the non specialist. Before the radio and after, but especially before the TV families would engage in music making in the home. There might be a piano,or banjo or guitars or mandolins around and family members would jam. Think how much of a pain in the neck that would be if ol Uncle Henry were a shredder on mandolin and al he wanted to do was show off his complex and mannered solos that lasted for 15 minutes while everyone else vamped behind him....Ughhhhhhh....Uncle Henry would be rude and he would not get invited over to jam because of the obnoxious wall to wall mandolin soloing. I think this happened in rock music in the late 70's and there was a reset in music going forward that said less male ego based masturbatory solos in rock and rock based musics.

I don't think the guitar solo went away, but fewer guitars are being purchased on the fantasy vision of being the guy in the band who everyone look sat to play the solo. For one thing women are playing a lot of guitar and playing better than the men or giving the boys a challenge. Overall that music is much less, much less composed around a face melty guitar solo and more about guitar being another texture. All that said the guitar God concept of face melt bands is going strong, often lead by women guitar soloist band leaders, it remains a discipline unto itself and it ain't going away. Only more women are not buying the passive participation route of standing in the audience letting a guy make their panties soak with a guitar solo, they are grabbing the Les Paul's and putting in the time to soak their own panties. And no shame either if a woman wants to bake her cookies and take them to a metal show to get her panties wet, everyone is free to have fun.

My summing up is that feminism killed the guitar, because the possibility of every teenage boy to grow up to be a potential panty wetter guitar soloist was dampened down by powerful chicks like Joan Jett who went against stereotypes and picked up the guitar and raged. The women now had a choice, they could follow Sister Rosetta Tharp and Joan Jett instead of Debbie Harry and Grace Slick. The boys in high school had to contend with that odd girl who did her homework everyday and then retired to her room with her telecaster and beat the crap out of it. Why a guitar the boys would would think, some chick is just going to smoke me on stage.

The tamborine was out, the axe was in. And you know once a willful woman gets her hands on a palo she ain't ever lettin' go.

I admit I lusted to be a panty loosening electric guitar soloist and spent good money after bad Japanese Les Paul's, then I figured out something very important, I call it The Remora Effect. The Remora is a fish that suckers onto a big shark and feeds on the crumbs of the things the shark eats. In rock and roll I learned if you get to know the lead guitarist of a band that you can get laid even if you are a talentless hack if you are willing to enlist the Remora Strategy. Any guitar God is only human and can accommodate so many women in one tour, so you handle the over flow. Yes you become a shameless bottom feeder, only you justify it by rightfully helping all the women who get backstage by paying attention to the ones the Guitar God spurns. Being the band Remora is a noble and thankless task helping the band tend to all the female attention after a show.

Better to be a remora than a set of ragged claws shuffling along the floors of silent seas.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 20 2017 18:32:16)

**clap clap** Excellent essay/rant, I enjoyed it!

The guitar solo might have properly died in the grunge era (my formative period), when flannel-wearing, goaty-singing neckbeard baritones with Les Pauls brought angsty, faux anti-corporate attitude, sloppy riffs, and unintelligible lyrics to the forefront.

I doubt it had much to do with Bonnie Raitt or Joan Jett, as awesome as each of those ladies were and are. My daughter's next project is "Cherry Bomb."

The death of blues-based rock ****ing is a near-daily topic on the GearPage, a site mostly composed of baby boomers of the type that actually go to Joe Bonamassa concerts and such.



Piwin -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 20 2017 18:47:41)

For a minute there you had given me hope in humanity.
Then I saw that I guy at 2:48.
Then I wondered how that guy's chances of getting laid compared to estebanana's rock band remora.
Then I remembered that a set of ragged claws shuffling along the floors of silent seas really like me really shouldn't judge.
In the cartoon version of my reaction, there's a tiny brown speck on the sea floor with tiny black clouds rising from it. There is nothing else around in the picture, just rocks and shades of blue. There is a dialogue bubble next to the brown speck and it reads "F*** that guy" with perhaps a skull, a pound sign and a few random punctation characters for effect.



mark74 -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 20 2017 19:07:31)

quote:

My summing up is that feminism killed the guitar,

This I agree with to a certain extent. Or at least the music business is much more focused on the female consumer these days, because women are the biggest consumers. Men like to spend their money on women and women like to spend their money on women, so women control the consumer culture



mark74 -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 20 2017 19:26:15)

The guy at 2:48, yes I rest my case. That guy is why Trump won the presidency



Mark2 -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 20 2017 19:46:08)

I'd bet that dude voted for Hilary. And I'd also wager that dude gets laid all the time, just not by women.

Women playing the guitar killed the solo? No. Hair metal killed it. So, maybe your right to an extent. Guys dressing like girls and wearing makeup killed the solo. Or maybe people hearing 10,000 guitar solos killed the solo.

But then you have guys like Jeff Beck who still kill it while actually having something to say. So, it ain't dead, but it ain't what it was.



quote:

ORIGINAL: mark74

The guy at 2:48, yes I rest my case. That guy is why Trump won the presidency



mark74 -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 20 2017 21:39:03)

Oh Im sure he voted for Hillary. Im just saying that guy is why Trump won the election..



Mark2 -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 20 2017 23:23:29)

Oh, I misunderstood. Don't know if we can blame this poor dude, but point taken. I like Rhianna but clearly not as much as this guy.



Piwin -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 21 2017 1:00:19)

Funny, I would've guessed Bernie fan that probably didn't vote because he found neither option any good. Oh the ways we judge on appearances :-)

quote:

Overall that music is much less, much less composed around a face melty guitar solo and more about guitar being another texture


That. And to be honest I kind of like that. Probably for the same reason that I tend to prefer accompaniment to solo guitarra.



estebanana -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 21 2017 1:30:25)

I just happy someone picked up my reference to Elliot.

And that what I meant by feminism killed the guitar is that indeed women buy more music then men. Feminism enabled women to have a separate income, and part of that income is disposable. People who have disposable income spend it on culture. The days of the double album with the guitar God playing indulgent solos, say Ted Nugent, are thank fully over.

I'll take the Stooges over the Nuges any day. - Also Rap happened, but Rap is special case, pushed by executives to be popular ad there were other urban Black musics at the same time that lost because mega rich investors did not back it. DC Go-Go never made it main stream, but it is more interesting music.

So more blame to go around, not just women with bigger wallets. And I'm not saying women having independence is a bad thing.



chester -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 21 2017 4:39:25)

quote:

The guitar solo might have properly died in the grunge era (my formative period), when flannel-wearing, goaty-singing neckbeard baritones with Les Pauls brought angsty, faux anti-corporate attitude, sloppy riffs, and unintelligible lyrics to the forefront.


Hey man, some of us LIKE those sloppy riffs and unintelligible lyrics!



estebanana -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 21 2017 6:21:48)

quote:

quote:

The guitar solo might have properly died in the grunge era (my formative period), when flannel-wearing, goaty-singing neckbeard baritones with Les Pauls brought angsty, faux anti-corporate attitude, sloppy riffs, and unintelligible lyrics to the forefront.


Hey man, some of us LIKE those sloppy riffs and unintelligible lyrics!


I call grunge the 'Quasi Lumberjack Movement' a reaction to English Punk going to LA and San Francisco - It arrives in the North West ten years too late and the Seattlites have to bring it some local flavor, but all they have are lumberjacks and fisherman. And the idiots pick Lumberjacking as a style. Grunge is waht happens when you hybridize Neil Young with REM

Fisherman style would have been better with Nor' Easter yellow rain slickers and huge gill nets on stage.
Grunge was such a fascistic movement.

Hipsters, yes, they kill everything.



Leñador -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 21 2017 13:01:00)

http://www.cultureify.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Gortons-Fisherman.jpg
Grunge? This guy is obviously a death metal fan....



estebanana -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 21 2017 14:38:46)

We should start a band called The Gortons and record it in pieces separately on our cell phones and then put it together. That would be finny.



Leñador -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 21 2017 14:51:00)

Yes! I've got a beard and wear rain slicks at work and you're an actual fisherman, it's perfect! Hahaha



Ricardo -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 21 2017 15:53:39)

quote:

For a minute there you had given me hope in humanity.
Then I saw that I guy at 2:48.


Look, after I got over my initial shock at one of my favorite guitarists dumbing down his art to perform with some pop fodder artist, I started to hunt for more of it and read comments. Not surprisingly rihanna fans took notice of the amazing guitar work and we generation X'ers more than happy to comeback with "That's Nuno!!! Welcome to the world of REAL music!!!"....anyway, it's all positive stuff IMO in the face of tons of crappola of today. I say the potential is there for resurgence.


Ricardo



Piwin -> RE: Did millennials kill music? (Mar. 21 2017 16:00:10)

Yeah you're right. It's pretty positive.
I just couldn't help but poke a little fun at that guy.



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