Can you write the rhythm? (Full Version)

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Miguel de Maria -> Can you write the rhythm? (Jan. 25 2006 16:51:56)

I was listening to some samba (David Tavares) this morning, and was having a hard time understanding the rhythm intellectually. I mean, sure the bossa beat is not that hard to feel, at least superficially, but I'm listening to the melody and trying to figure out, is that the and or the and a...that kind of thing. And I've been thinking about rhythm so much lately and looking at it in a whole different way.

I was wondering, how many of you could notate what you are playing at any given time. For example, say you are playing an alegrias compas, could you actually write down and say.... strum down on the 12, upstrokes on the 1&, accent on the 3 ...for example. What I mean is how conscious are you of what you are playing rhythmically, not your expertise in music notation.

If you're improvising, could you articulate the rhythmic figures you're using and what beat they're starting, on, etc.?



Ricardo -> RE: Can you write the rhythm? (Jan. 25 2006 16:59:34)

Tedious to say the least, but I could do it. Only because in college, my friend was a percussionist and used to talk and write music in rhythmic terms. We had a system of writing stuff out for each other so we did not need to rehearse much. He taught me how to "feel" what I was reading. It is easy when you learn some rudiments and see different rhythmic patterns that keep turning up. I like to buy music simply to follow the score. I hate tablature with no rhythms written in.

Ricardo



duende -> RE: Can you write the rhythm? (Jan. 25 2006 18:24:33)

to answer Migule. Yes i can.

Ricardo. Im glad im not the only one who loves to read the music as i listen to it.
I have always doen that. it´s great to see what they play as you hear it.[&:]



ToddK -> RE: Can you write the rhythm? (Jan. 25 2006 19:51:19)

I dont read the dots, but what helped me was midi sequencing,
using a matrix layout, instead of notation.

In a matrix editor, you can lay a grid at any beat value you indicate.
Quarters, sixteenths, thirtyseconds, etc.
You enter notes into the grid with the mouse. It can all be done by ear.
I found that simply by writing out things i already knew on guitar,
was a great way of learning beat division. Being able to hear it
play, with the a visual cue of where things lay against the the beat grid,
really helps..



Mark2 -> RE: Can you write the rhythm? (Jan. 25 2006 21:29:48)

I can do it as well, but why bother? The skill is needed to transcribe what others are doing on recordings though, and in modern flamenco hearing where things are placed in the compas is where it's at. Todd, I'm envious of your knowledge of Logic, that program is the be all end all-I just wish I could spend 4 hours a day with it. Have you seen version 7? It's insane. The reverb plug in, the bass and guitar amp simulators, etc. I know they bolted on you with the abandonment of PC support, which was a crime for a guy like you. What are you using now and how is it working in comparison?



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Can you write the rhythm? (Jan. 25 2006 21:35:32)

Mark,
I think the question springs from the realization that I have a pretty shaky grasp of rhythm in general. Once I "identify" a rhythm to the point I could write it (if I wanted to), I seem to be able to play it with a lot more authority and groove.



Mark2 -> RE: Can you write the rhythm? (Jan. 25 2006 21:49:22)

Hi Miguel,
In college, one of the books we had to study was called "Rythmic Training" which was a series of exercises of just rythmic figures in standard notation, getting progressively harder. By focusing on just this one thing, you can make rapid strides in your reading ability and your ability to articulate rythmic passages. I'm sure I still have the book and can find the name of the author if your interested. I bet transcribing any modern flamenco guitarist would give you a pretty good workout as well. Another great book I picked up many years ago was written by Tommy Tedesco, who was a great LA studio guitarist. In addition to the absolutely hilarious stories about his playing career and experiences, his book focuses on tricks for sight reading on the guitar. Really great insights.



sorin popovici -> RE: Can you write the rhythm? (Jan. 25 2006 22:00:21)

nope [:@]



ToddK -> RE: Can you write the rhythm? (Jan. 25 2006 22:15:10)

quote:

Todd, I'm envious of your knowledge of Logic, that program is the be all end all-I just wish I could spend 4 hours a day with it. Have you seen version 7? It's insane. The reverb plug in, the bass and guitar amp simulators, etc. I know they bolted on you with the abandonment of PC support, which was a crime for a guy like you. What are you using now and how is it working in comparison?


Im now using Nuendo 2 (Steinberg)

It works great. Its a great program. More suited to straight audio stuff,
than sampling/midi, but it works well enough.

Sometimes, its cool to write falsettas in the editor instead of the guitar.
You can follow your ear, with out falling into your "habit" chords/scales.



Ryan002 -> RE: Can you write the rhythm? (Jan. 26 2006 6:25:55)

"...my thing is I studied drum book rudiments to help my right hand picking, going up and down. When I came to LA I was even getting drum books from Joe Porcaro, Jeff Procaro's father (Drummer for Toto). Before LA, I was studying other drum books."
- David Williams (Rhythm Specialist for Steely Dan, Bryan Ferry, Michael Jackson and Madonna).

Just thought it would be interesting to note that some guitarists out there have it written down even before they start [:D]



Ricardo -> RE: Can you write the rhythm? (Jan. 26 2006 8:24:04)

Excellent quote Ryan, that is exactly the stuff I have been saying for a while in terms of studying music. I think all non drummer instrumentalists, who study music in school or from books, should do the same.



sorin popovici -> RE: Can you write the rhythm? (Jan. 26 2006 8:35:24)

ok , i'm kind of a non believer...cause is so much easier to be lazy.
but can I ask if a drum book will help ? i mean what's more in a drum book than u cant
do yourself, cause u can take little rhytmic patterns and try to count or knock on table.
What's their secret do they have a different aproach or smth?



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Can you write the rhythm? (Jan. 26 2006 12:45:32)

Sorin, there's a lot of good advice flying around right now. Why don't you try it and then make up your own mind whether it helped you or not?



Ryan002 -> RE: Can you write the rhythm? (Jan. 26 2006 13:07:26)

I think many guitarists out there do not pay careful attention to rhythm work because there is this misconception that rhythm is "easy". In the minds of many amateur (and sometimes even intermediate) level guitarists there is the tendency to believe that rhythm is just strumming a bunch of chords, it's very simple, and there's no need to practice it or study it in detail so they'll do it for about 10 minutes a day and be satisfied.

I am guessing that studying the work of drummers, who are totally focused on rhythm, exposes the amount of "give" built into a rhythmic system. Places where irregularities are allowable or enhance the flavour, places between and on beats where timing can shift suddenly and then snap back, etc.

In terms of Flamenco, all this drumming really helps to develop that internal metronome in your head that's telling you where to deliver the punch and when to tone down, even if you are studying drumming for other forms of music. Someone who has played the guitar before and wants to learn flamenco will pick up faster than someone who has never touched the guitar before, no matter what his grounding in guitar music is. Same for drums and rhythm I suppose.



carlos soto -> RE: Can you write the rhythm? (Jan. 26 2006 13:40:12)

I think more important than be able to write a rythm it's to be able to feel it, if there's a compas you have to try to feel the cicle, cuban music has a lot of this and you can see why people love to dance it, cuban musicians are just mad about feeling the rythm, I see this with flamenco as well.
And yes I could write the rythm, it always helps to be aware of something in more than one dimension.



Ricardo -> RE: Can you write the rhythm? (Jan. 27 2006 6:03:13)

quote:

ok , i'm kind of a non believer...cause is so much easier to be lazy.
but can I ask if a drum book will help ? i mean what's more in a drum book than u cant
do yourself, cause u can take little rhytmic patterns and try to count or knock on table.
What's their secret do they have a different aproach or smth?


Ok, here are drum rudiments for the lazy. This can be fun once you figure out how to use the darn thing.

http://webmayhem.net/drum/


Carlos is right, regardless of how you read, write, think, count, or hear it, ultimately it is all about the feel.

Ricardo



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