Different Picado schools (Full Version)

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Rennes -> Different Picado schools (Nov. 8 2016 13:13:47)

After seeing various examples of picado technique, I get the impression that there is basically two different approaches to playing picado.

1. The Sabicas school with a bended wrist.
2. Paco style with a flat wrist.

Do you agree?, and if so what do you prefer and why?



tri7/5 -> RE: Different Picado schools (Nov. 8 2016 13:19:07)

I don't think it's quite that cut and dry personally. If you watch the greats they all do things a little different as no ones anatomy is the same.



kitarist -> RE: Different Picado schools (Nov. 8 2016 14:27:40)

I also think there are only two schools, but they are the following:

1. The "picado technique and position adapted to one's anatomy" school
2. The "picado technique and position despite one's anatomy" school.
:-)



Ricardo -> RE: Different Picado schools (Nov. 8 2016 16:21:38)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rennes

After seeing various examples of picado technique, I get the impression that there is basically two different approaches to playing picado.

1. The Sabicas school with a bended wrist.
2. Paco style with a flat wrist.

Do you agree?, and if so what do you prefer and why?


Generally this is correct. The first one is more natural to many, the 2nd is learned by imitating a maestro. The main reason #2 is better overall is it allows for less hand/position movement between arpeggio and scale passages which is helpful when playing fast. However, even though it might feel more comfortable when the players gets used to it, there is no speed advantage over #1, as can be seen by countless examples of both styles. While you might hear arguments about speed and tone, I think that there is too much evidence that these things are the result of other factors. I suggest to students that if they are playing well using #1 to just stick with it and gain inspiration from the other players that do well with that technique. I don't mind showing #2 to students that are wanted to develop that either, but it is more about the look and feel of the technique than the musical result. In other words, changing technique will take time and that might not be ideal.

Edit:I wanted to point out that the wrist is superficially involved here, the true difference between the schools is the amount of bend in the middle joint of the index and middle fingers, which in turn may or may not affect the thumb and wrist positions.
For more reading:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=125164&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=flat%2Cpicado&tmode=&smode=&s=#125164
And here:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=156639&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=picado%2Cergonomic
Ricardo



Tap_Tap -> RE: Different Picado schools (Nov. 8 2016 22:04:40)


anyone had any experience/success using the index and ring finger for picado? Im not suggesting it, but I came across it the other day and it is curious...



Piwin -> RE: Different Picado schools (Nov. 8 2016 22:13:03)

I had a teacher who got pretty good results doing that. He said he felt the M finger sort of balanced the hand. I practice it but don't really use it outside of practice.



eugensedko -> RE: Different Picado schools (Nov. 9 2016 11:24:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rennes

After seeing various examples of picado technique, I get the impression that there is basically two different approaches to playing picado.

1. The Sabicas school with a bended wrist.
2. Paco style with a flat wrist.

Do you agree?, and if so what do you prefer and why?


I think it it depends on your style, sitting position, hand proportions and personal comfort.

That's why as for me there are two main "schools", even better to say "approaches", I'm agree with kitarist: 1) that adapts to your proportions, personal style and comfort; 2) that requires copying somebody because he plays/played very good.

Playing i-a picado can be comfortable because these fingers have about the same length. But as always, there are some disadvantages: i-a are more far relative to each other (than i-m), picado sounds will differ from each other, tension of a string will be more different on two fingers, as a result you will have dirtier sound of picado. But it is easier because two fingers are bended equally. Otherwise you must bend M finger a little bit more.

If you play with a flat wrist, I suppose your flexor muscle will work more effectively, your ligaments will be straight and you can pick the string with a strong impulse. Angle of power will be different, an attack will sound sharper. If your ligaments are bended, I believe it is harder. For example, Sabicas had clear sound and good rhythmical pulse but he was not able to play play with such a strong Paco's impulse. Grisha Goryachev can, but I think it is because of another anatomy.

By the way, Serranito plays picado with a-m-i fingers. But there was one russian guy Dmitry Mamontov, he played really amazing a-m-i picado.



mark indigo -> RE: Different Picado schools (Nov. 9 2016 15:15:59)

quote:

After seeing various examples of picado technique, I get the impression that there is basically two different approaches to playing picado. 1. The Sabicas school with a bended wrist. 2. Paco style with a flat wrist.

Which one does Manolo Sanlúcar belong to?



Ricardo -> RE: Different Picado schools (Nov. 9 2016 15:37:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

After seeing various examples of picado technique, I get the impression that there is basically two different approaches to playing picado. 1. The Sabicas school with a bended wrist. 2. Paco style with a flat wrist.

Which one does Manolo Sanlúcar belong to?


#2....in fact he is exemplary with a perfect relax pinky etc. [;)]



Cervantes -> RE: Different Picado schools (Nov. 9 2016 15:40:10)

When I watch and listen to Paco Pena, he has a very stacatto sounding picado.
Not known to be blazing fast as the other Paco but certainly not slow and his wrist and fingers are quite bent. I like this picado it has more character.



mark indigo -> RE: Different Picado schools (Nov. 10 2016 15:42:30)

quote:

quote:After seeing various examples of picado technique, I get the impression that there is basically two different approaches to playing picado. 1. The Sabicas school with a bended wrist. 2. Paco style with a flat wrist. Which one does Manolo Sanlúcar belong to? #2....in fact he is exemplary with a perfect relax pinky etc.


and Gerardo Nuñez (pre-injury)? I remember something on the Encuentro vid about hand position.... I should check that out again.

I'm not sure which wrist option is considered most natural, but Manolo in particular has always seemed to me (from watching vids) that his hands are both very natural and relaxed looking.



Ricardo -> RE: Different Picado schools (Nov. 10 2016 19:22:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

quote:After seeing various examples of picado technique, I get the impression that there is basically two different approaches to playing picado. 1. The Sabicas school with a bended wrist. 2. Paco style with a flat wrist. Which one does Manolo Sanlúcar belong to? #2....in fact he is exemplary with a perfect relax pinky etc.


and Gerardo Nuñez (pre-injury)? I remember something on the Encuentro vid about hand position.... I should check that out again.

I'm not sure which wrist option is considered most natural, but Manolo in particular has always seemed to me (from watching vids) that his hands are both very natural and relaxed looking.


Nuñez, as discussed, normally functions using #2...but in the Encuentro video he demos both ways and claims #1 as more natural. He continues to do #1 with examples but if you focus closely you will note several times he reverts to #2 position...IMO it was more what he was used too. To this day I don't really understand why he made such a big deal in the video about it....in his actual classes I don't remember him ever addressing it. His picado is just fine these days....the problem he developed around 2010 or so is with index finger strumming and tirando (arps and tremolo).



pundi64 -> RE: Different Picado schools (Nov. 10 2016 21:04:15)

Natural feel to me is the bent wrist, no tension



turnermoran -> RE: Different Picado schools (Nov. 29 2016 16:39:58)

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=LmGSGvpJV48

Check out the 2 approaches here



lewisyau1984 -> RE: Different Picado schools (Dec. 1 2016 0:42:53)

Hi Tap_Tap, I am a flamenco beginner and I am now seriously focusing on i-a picado instead of i-m. The reason is that my index is relatively much shorter than my middle. Therefore, when I am playing i-m picado, I have to spend extra energy on balancing my fingers in order to offset the length difference between them. Also, the length difference also makes my picado very unbalanced. It is somehow OK when I play at the same string but when I need to change strings, the unbalancing sounds would be very obvious.

I just start practicing i-a in these few weeks. I will update you and fellow flamenco lovers here about how I feel [:D]

But one thing is good for sure. I can maintain the arpeggio wrist posture to play both arpeggio and i-a picado and therefore the transition problem is less a concern.



Ricardo -> RE: Different Picado schools (Dec. 1 2016 12:04:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lewisyau1984

Hi Tap_Tap, I am a flamenco beginner and I am now seriously focusing on i-a picado instead of i-m. The reason is that my index is relatively much shorter than my middle. Therefore, when I am playing i-m picado, I have to spend extra energy on balancing my fingers in order to offset the length difference between them. Also, the length difference also makes my picado very unbalanced. It is somehow OK when I play at the same string but when I need to change strings, the unbalancing sounds would be very obvious.

I just start practicing i-a in these few weeks. I will update you and fellow flamenco lovers here about how I feel [:D]

But one thing is good for sure. I can maintain the arpeggio wrist posture to play both arpeggio and i-a picado and therefore the transition problem is less a concern.


Simply bending the m finger fixes this problem and gets to the heart of the reasoning behind "flat wrist" or whatever superficial description you want to give no2. Of the original post. Since you are a beginner you have a chance to try it and get used to it. I have not heard yet i-a picado users that have the same sound as the i-m players.

Ricardo



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